Join Paul Foley and Rachael Mahoney on Bulk Exchanges as they welcome Kevin Lunny, a serial entrepreneur and heavy civil contractor from West Marin. Kevin shares his background as a rancher and business owner, offering insights into his journey in the construction industry. Tune in to learn more about Kevin’s experiences in the trillion-dollar industry of heavy civil construction and technology.
Resources
Bulk Exchange Website: https://www.bulkexchange.com
Transcript
Paul Foley:
Welcome, everybody. This is Paul Foley, and you’re listening to Bulk Exchanges, where we explore the human stories behind heavy civil construction and technology. Along with my co-host, Rachael Mahoney, we will be introducing guests from all areas of our trillion-dollar industry, from the legends that shaped modern infrastructure to the next generation who will revolutionize it. We will discuss ideas, opportunities and strategies for what’s next. Hello, so we’ve got Kevin Lunny here today. Kevin, thanks very much for coming on Bulk Exchanges.
Kevin Lunny: Well, thank you for having me. This is an honor.
Paul Foley: Cool, cool. Well, I’ve had the pleasure of knowing Kevin for almost 20 years, I’d say, mainly through my own business, Greener Excavations. I’d be dropping off material at the quarry out there or picking up different aggregates, or maybe I’d be dumping green waste off at the West Marine Compost. But, you know, I’ve had the pleasure of knowing you all that time. You’ve always been somebody I looked up to as a serial entrepreneur. You’re a rancher. I grew up on a farm back in Leitrim. I think your cows still give milk. The cows in Leitrim gave up milk a long time ago. But you’re a heavy civil contractor, material supplier. you know, you’ve got the compost facility. So I’d love if you’d share with the listeners today on who Kevin Lunney is, you know, your background out there in West Marin, one of the most beautiful parts of the country, your experience as a business owner, and yeah, I look forward to hearing your side of it, Kevin.
Kevin Lunny: Well, fantastic. Well, my history is uneventful when it comes to where I’ve lived, because I’ve lived on the same ranch since I was born, and I’ve never moved except my college years. So, born and raised on a ranch out on the Point Reyes Peninsula in Western Marin County, California, and it’s a cattle ranch, and I fell in love with livestock and I fell in love with all kinds of agriculture and I’ve stayed very involved in agriculture and sustainable agriculture and organic agriculture specifically. I got my agricultural degree at UC Davis and thought that this was going to be a big part of my future and I love the business part of it and my mom and dad ran the business and After college, I began to work with my brother Joe, who had just started off in heavy civil construction. He bought a backhoe and a truck and a trailer. And I started working with him in the trenches and with a shovel. And I also did the bookkeeping and sort of fell in love with that business, too. So we had kind of two businesses going. And then along came the oyster farm, which is our neighbor. The Johnsons used to have an oyster farm in Drake’s Estero. And when they were leaving, we decided to take that over. So this was the third business where we purchased the oyster farm and tried to get that oyster farm back on its feet. And that was a fantastic business. It was very beloved, very important to the industry. We produced close to 60% of the oysters grown in California. at the last oyster cannery in the state. And that’s where we started to learn a little bit about the kinds of challenges that could come up. We’re a little bit caught by surprise with the use of the National Environmental Policy Act, for example. It’s just a, it’s an environmental regulation. It was made in the 19, you know, promulgated in the 1970s. Really important law, great law that helps to protect natural resources and holds agencies accountable for making decisions, making sure the public’s involved. So we weren’t afraid of it until we saw sort of how it can be abused. And so anti-agriculture activists and even the agency misused, misapplied, and used it as a weapon. And we ultimately were wrongly kicked out of that business. So there is an example of a business that was thriving and everybody loved, and a few well-connected and well-funded people can undo it.
Paul Foley: Yeah, because when people go out to West Marin or West Sonoma, we all marvel at the beauty out there. people like to have their local beef and their local milk and go and have the oysters come from there. I don’t think a lot of people reflect on those are businesses, those are small mom-and-pop business enterprises that have to navigate a lot of these huge challenges, whether they’re environmental regulations or, you know, different types of obstacles that can be put in place, often with very good intent, but can be manipulated or distorted, which is really too bad, Kevin, because, you know, and how would you say that that you guys lean into that and get through these sorts of challenges, either on the ranch or the oyster farming or as a supplier out there in West Marin of materials?
Kevin Lunny: Well, I think you’re right. And people do use these and manipulate these. And we had a lot of people come to us during and after that oyster farm debate. I bring this up because it was a great learning experience. We recognize how this can be used and it’s serious and it actually has helped launch us forward. into being successful in our other businesses because we’re recognizing that it doesn’t always go the way you think it’s going to go. It doesn’t go as planned. And the other thing I learned is when you get into this new territory, this uncharted territory, it’s okay to ask for help because there are experts. We aren’t experts in everything and we never will be, but there are people around you and there are friends and family to lean on and It’s just a never give up. It’s one of those things people ask, well, how do you even go on now? Because that was an excruciating decade long battle that turned into a national battle and was finally decided by a president cabinet member. I even met the president myself during and after this about this issue. So it escalated into a place where we would never expect it. But it’s actually served. It’s served us well. We’ve learned that you just keep your head down and you keep moving, but keep your eyes open. And so that, you know, we’ve reached, we’ve had similar challenges at the compost operation that we operate now where we make soils and mulches and we manage West Morin’s green waste and all the organic recyclables. Same sorts of challenges where People might be opposed to something and purport it to be either a violation of an environmental rule or a zoning rule. And what we find is these really are things that they’re less interested in. They’re just looking for a tool because they don’t like what you’re doing or where you’re doing it. And it’s okay. You have to face that head on. You can’t lose your patience because that’ll get you nowhere. You can’t turn this into a fight. It has to be a discussion. When there is opposition, what we found is 90% of the time, good communication can solve a lot of this. It can dispel fears that people might have when they’re opposing something that you’re planning. Yeah. And so it’s really, I really suggest that people always take a deep breath, always count to 10 before you say something that could be hurtful, and look for another path, because that sort of patience I think will really serve you well.
Paul Foley: Yeah and I’ve always commended you for that you’ve kept you know you’ve stayed on the on the higher ground despite some of those challenges because you know I just know as a local contractor you know sometimes people don’t realize that these smaller small businesses typically family owned, typically multi-generational, you know they, when I’m working a project and there’s plenty of projects going on in Marin, people like to move here and they like to improve their houses and make them look nicer, well instead of me driving you know, two or three hours up the road or an hour and a half down the road to a facility, you know, facilities like yours out there in West Marin can be just, you know, cut down on, you know, road time and emissions and, and just, you know, the convenience factor of it being there and available. So, you know, there’s a, there’s measures, they call them distance matters, and it does matter, you know, having those type of small businesses and suppliers close by.
Rachael Mahoney: Well said, Paul. And one of the things that really struck me about what you said, Kevin, is I actually have a different experience, but it’s very related to what you’re talking about. And growing up in Alaska, for me, was quite the introduction to this idea that you want to protect such pristine environments and have convenience, but also drive to sustainability, and how as humans being in charge of some of these policies, the best of intentions can create consequences that are really difficult to navigate. And so I love how you approach it with this idea of patience and communication and relationships. But also the reality is, is some of this as being an entrepreneur and a business owner as you are, is figuring out how to navigate these challenges. And I think we can all agree that in the next five to seven years, especially as sustainability becomes more and more important as we look to protect the natural resources that we have, but nobody wants to sacrifice the outcome or the convenience of what is provided. I would love to hear what you would recommend to those upcoming business owners, those next generation of folks that will literally help shape the land as you have, What do you think we’re going to be looking at in the next, you know, five years or so from your perspective? And what would you tell them to help them get a leg up and to prepare for it?
Kevin Lunny: I think that’s a great question, because I actually think that the answer to that, I may not have it. But I mean, I can opine, because that’s really critical. I think we’re at a juncture in our lives where There are more and more people. Paul touched on distance matters. We have these heavy aggregates that are very expensive, and there’s a major carbon consequence of shipping, yet we don’t want it in our backyard, so not here. And so there needs to be reconciliation with the not-in-my-backyard folks, and businesses are actually doing great things, doing great things for communities and for the people. So I’ve noticed what is becoming more and more successful, and we are not good at it. And that’s technology, and that is being able to navigate social media in a positive way. A lot of people are reading these things, and you can educate. For example, let’s just use our small example of our compost or our rock quarry, or even our ranch, because our ranch is on beautiful land, and it’s what we consider a perfect example of cooperative conservation, where we’re producing food and the natural resources are thriving, and we think that’s the perfect balance. But we’re up against people who think the only way to preserve natural resources is to remove all industry and all business. If you’re reading, if you just hear it, you listen to what the opposition and what the anti-groups come out with, well, that can be compelling, but it’s not if you really know all the facts. So small business people could help with educating, get ahead of that curve. We don’t know what’s around the curve, but if people understand your business, understand the impacts both negative and positive to our environment, whether it be air quality or water quality, but really understand it. So when a naysayer comes up and says, you’re bad for all these reasons, your community already knows the right answer. So I just think that we aren’t as good at it as we could have been. And I think, I honestly think there might’ve been some different outcomes in some of our own struggles if we were actually more technologically advanced, we were better communicators online, if we had better websites, if we had more connection really to our colleagues in business, we have better connections to suppliers and better connections to are customers where we’re communicating often and we’re looking out for each other because we care about each other. That’s how I think new businesses need to be willing to take that step into the more exposure and communication so that it’s less likely that someone with the wrong intentions can deceive.
Rachael Mahoney: I love that idea of cooperative communication, because especially as a small business owner, it can be incredibly prohibitive, both just in terms of the personnel resources and the monetary resources you need to create that engagement and awareness of things like that. And it’s only going to get more challenging As you’re well aware, there is a huge focus on the heavy civil industry right now, or heavy civil construction industry from private equity. And we know from the history of when the proverbial I gets here, kind of what comes next. And so as we look into a landscape literally and figuratively going forward where you have this tremendous amount of money rolling in to create place of consolidation to favor some of the larger enterprises that are leaning in to kind of take over greater and greater influence. I would be very interested to hear your take on how you’re dealing with what’s coming for the industry to highlight that, that cooperative nature of how to not only survive that, to feel like you can be proactive and not be a victim of what’s coming.
Kevin Lunny: That is a great question. We all need to be aware of how big money and bigger corporations that see You know, an opportunity in our industry, in the heavy civil industry, is a significant challenge. We are small contractors and we are not as important to the suppliers as the big corporations. So I think the way we’ve tried to deal with that is connection and relationships. It’s building rapport and trust with colleagues in the business, in our same industry, working together instead of competitive or competitors. We’re certainly competitors. We might even bid on the same job. And at the same time, We need to be talking and there needs to be mutual respect and sharing of information. The same kind of relationships with our suppliers and our customers. So we impart confidence in the small family business and that when they call us, They’ll talk to people that they recognize. It’s not going to be just an estimator that was hired last year. And then when it comes time to do the work, well, the project manager is somebody else you haven’t met. And I think it’s important to keep those relationships open and to be talking.
Paul Foley: Yeah, there’s so much power that small guys like us can have that the bigger guys, like you said, don’t have because of that disconnect. I always remember I was sitting in your office one day, Kevin, and we’re talking about bulk exchange and this new technology and all this construction tech that’s coming at us. And your wife, Nancy, she said to me, Paul, that’s great all this technology you’re talking about, but I love talking to the truckers and I love when they get down off the truck and they come into the office to sign the tags or I love talking to the different contractors and homeowners. What that really reminded me of was once again, the value and the importance of relationships in this industry. You can have the technology, but don’t forget about what built this industry to be what it is today is the power of those relationships.
Rachael Mahoney: Yeah, that’s a great point, Paul. And speaking of which, you touched on this. Relationships like that aren’t made in a day. And because of what we see just in our society is that in some ways, the convenience of technology and social media and things like that have put even more distance between us, especially for the next generation that is going to be taking over in the next five to seven years. What advice would you have for those folks that are in the process right now or just coming out of school and going to places where relationships are so important so that they could have a leg up in starting to build those for their future?
Kevin Lunny: Yeah, I think that’s a great question too, because for that generation, the technology is second nature. When you sit down at a table and you see two people texting, And then you find out later they were texting each other across the table.
Paul Foley: I’ve got two teenage boys. I see it all happen on the kitchen table. Yeah.
Kevin Lunny: Well, so that’s that’s really a great question, Rachel. It is. Don’t forget, you know, the personal connection and don’t forget the relationships. You know, on Nancy and Paul’s point, you had that quick conversation with Nancy. How nice it is to keep that connection, whether it’s the driver or it’s or it’s the company, I see it hand in hand because for example, on that same issue, if this was organized, if this was a load that was organized through bulk exchange, it actually makes that connection easier and better because it isn’t fretting about what’s the job address and what’s the right material and all those things are solved and it makes actually, a more relaxed and better opportunity just to say hi instead of we need all your information. So I think together is powerful.
Rachael Mahoney: Yeah, I love that. One of my favorite quotes or takes on, let’s say, the advent of some of this technology that the fear is that it will create even greater distance between us, which is artificial intelligence. One of the takes that really resonated with me is that what the current systems out there, the intelligence systems, the LLMs are specifically good at are those things that fit neatly in an algorithm. where they tend to be less so are those elements around relationship and human behavior. And so the recommendation in one of these famous technology CEOs was, if I had to tell kids today what to study, it would actually be a pivot away from the traditional things that we’ve been trying to drive them to in technology and math, And instead, human behavior, because it is the one thing that is the hardest for those models to replicate. And I think that encapsulates exactly what you said, is that whatever technology you have on board, and it is important for this industry that there are better options available, not to lose sight of how you can build those relationships to create the sustainability within the business that you and many others are trying to navigate in terms of your own business on the outside. So thank you for that. I think it’s wonderful. And the last question that we have for you today, it’s one that we ask on each and every one of these episodes, but it’s very timely given what we just talked about. And that is something that Paul and I are passionate about. What we saw in each other that encouraged us to work together, what we try to cultivate and look for when we add folks to our team, And what he has indicated through the length of your relationship is essential to having the success that you’ve had and also just navigating the challenges to be here and talking to us today with your wisdom. And that is grit. You know, it’s a word that you hear tossed around a lot, but in terms of its importance, I think it’s unparalleled for any business success, but specifically for someone like yourself who’s done this in multitude of ways and over the course of time. So would you tell us what grit means to you and maybe some examples of what you think is most important about it and how you use it and recognize it in those you work with every day?
Kevin Lunny: I can try. Rachel, what I see as grit and what I see as sort of essential, if you want to be a new business owner or you want to take over an existing business, you will have moments that you’re wondering why you’re doing this and if you should give up. And even stronger than when that comes from yourself is when a family member or a spouse says, is this really worth it? And that’s the moment that you dig deep and you say, absolutely, not only is it worth it, it’s gonna be better. And you think about how to make that better. And even if it’s an ugly moment, where you feel like there’s someone against you or an agency against you. And you have to ask the question, okay, how can I use that power and the strength of my opposition here to my advantage? And never give up because those challenges will be there. You need to expect them. My mom probably taught me one of the most important lessons when I was young in business. I’m 66 now, be 67 in December and I was in my 20s and we were We were doing a water main somewhere, I forget, I think out in the town of Inverness. And we were pretty upside down on this job was poorly bid. And I just didn’t foresee the costs. And I remember being pretty dejected at the dinner table. And my mom said, you know, once you’ve gone through some real trouble in a business, That makes you better. That makes you stronger. Look at this as an education. Look at this as a learning opportunity. As hard as it is, you’re going to come out the other end even better. And she was right. So if you’re in business, it is not going to be unusual that you’re going to have your struggles. And if you absolutely refuse to give up, you’re probably going to be successful.
Paul Foley: Yeah, amen to that. Well said, and words of wisdom from our mothers, which continually resonate and guide us on all these journeys. My own mother was as tough as they get as well. Well, Kevin, you’re a gentleman and a scholar, as they say back home. An absolute pleasure to talk to you today. Thanks very much for being on Bulk Exchanges, and we look forward to chatting to you on the next one.
Kevin Lunny: Well, thank you and thank you for having me and thank you for creating Bulk Exchanges because that’s one of those technologies that could help all of us.
Paul Foley: On behalf of myself and Rachel, we want to thank our guests and listeners for joining us on another episode of Bulk Exchanges, where industry meets infrastructure and shapes great conversations. Please remember to like, share, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And also find us at BulkExchange.com and on socials at BulkExchange. And remember, until next time, keep building, listening, and learning.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
