Today we’re going to talk about the ins and outs of B2B SEO, why it’s so important to do right, and the role of AI in the future of search.
To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome Sam Dunning, Founder of the B2B SEO Agency Breaking B2B.
Resources
The Breaking B2B website: https://www.breakingb2b.com
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B2B Agility with Greg Kihlström is produced by Missing Link—a Latina-owned strategy-driven, creatively fueled production co-op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. https://www.missinglink.company
Transcript
Note: This was AI-generated and only lightly edited
Greg Kihlstrom:
Today we’re going to talk about the ins and outs of B2B SEO, why it’s so important to do right, and the role of AI in the future of search. To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome Sam Dunning, founder at Breaking B2B. Sam, welcome to the show.
Sam Dunning: Hey, Greg, thanks for having me on, man. Looking forward to getting stuck in.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And yeah, thank you for I know I was on your show a little bit ago. And so now reciprocating here. So looking forward to talking about this. For those that haven’t caught your show yet. Why don’t you start by giving a little background on yourself and what you’re currently doing?
Sam Dunning: Yeah, sure. So Sam Dunning, I’m founder over at Breaking B2B. We tend to help B2B tech, SaaS or service companies that are usually a little bit frustrated that maybe when they go on Google search and prospects are searching for what they do or how they help, competitors are constantly outranking them, kind of stealing traffic or inbound leads or sales calls or demos. So we fixed that with a bit of an unusual approach to organic search and website design and dev and content marketing. and also run a podcast just like yourself called Breaking B2B, B2B marketing focused. So we do a mix of interviews with B2B practitioners, and they share tips on what’s working to grow their business and marketing side of things. And we also do solo episodes on SEO, website tips and unusual B2B strategies.
Greg Kihlstrom: Great. Well, wonderful. Yeah, and definitely, definitely recommend everybody listening to check out that show. Definitely a lot of a lot of great insights there. So let’s just get started by a pretty fundamental question. But you know, you’ve you’ve put a lot of focus on on b2b SEO, you know, why, why focus there? And you know, what, what kind of got you into that?
Sam Dunning: Yeah, yeah. So I’ll save you the too heavy background story. But it’s mainly as most B2B organizations, I mean, the lifeblood of most B2B companies, be them service based, technology based or software based is sales. And to get there, their sales team, be it very tiny with just perhaps the founder selling, or be it large with a whole team of outbound, inbound, AEs, SDRs, and all kinds of sellers. But they’re going to need a steady stream of leads. And from my background, really, from the frustration of when I used to work in other agencies, be the marketing based or web based or otherwise, never really getting a steady stream of inbound leads from marketing. And then eventually discovering this crazy thing called Google Organic Search, SEO, where you could essentially capture folks that were directly searching for your offer or comparing you to alternatives or searching for problems you fix. And if your content did a good job, if your SEO strategy worked well, and if your website was good at building trust and showing people what they wanted to see and converting them, SEO was, I found SEO a great way to drive a steady stream of kind of organic, fairly qualified sales calls or demos for some of the companies I worked at and then eventually span off and after messing around with many experiments and some of which did work, some of which didn’t work, ranking my own stuff, kind of fired up my own team after basically feeling the frustrations myself as a founder that sells. and kind of most most smaller businesses and as they grow and get bigger sales teams struggle to get a steady stream of inbound leads. So that’s the kind of problem that we we look to tap and we find a lot of b2b companies in the same boat.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah. And so you know, you’ve touched a little bit on a few of these these points, but you know, what what makes I mean, SEO is challenging in and of itself, but what makes B2B SEO so challenging? And for those maybe a little more familiar, I know there’s a lot of B2B folks listening to the show, but how is B2B different from B2C when it comes to SEO?
Sam Dunning: So it’s going back to fundamentals, really. It’s the fact that B2B, especially when you go into higher ticket deal size, So not so much talking, I don’t know, $20, $30, simple contracts where someone might just flick on your website for the first time and sign up or purchase. But when we get into higher average contract values, be it $50K a year, $100K a year, $200K a year, whatever, and higher, that’s when it gets trickier because there’s multiple folks involved in the decision process. So therefore, SEO becomes a part of that marketing ecosystem. As an example, sometimes when we get inbound leads at breaking B2B, they might put on the book a call form. that they found me our company through organic search. But when I actually speak to them, they might say something like, well, yeah, we did see you on Google. In fact, that was one of my colleagues on the marketing team. But also we heard you before on a podcast, then we followed just some of your stuff on LinkedIn. And we saw some of your ads. And what you come to realize is that b2b buying is quite complex. SEO is can work really well to capture some of that demand and drive some leads and demos. but it can also partner up with the other B2B channels and marketing channels that you’re running, be it ads, be it content marketing, be it podcast, email, LinkedIn, kind of feeds into that ecosystem and kind of helps you keep mind share. So as I touched on the B2B buying cycle is often involves several decision makers. So if they are searching on Google and you’re not showing up, you’re almost giving your competitors a free slice of the pie.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah, and so you know, I think a lot of people to kind of talk about what people get wrong about SEO, you know, I think a lot of people do have unrealistic expectations of well, I’m, you know, I do XYZ. And we’re a pretty big company. So why don’t we automatically rank, you know, top 123. But like, you know, as far as other things as well, like what do most people get wrong about b2b se like what what are you hearing from people when they first walk in the door, so to speak, as far as you know, unrealistic expectations are just kind of, you know, get getting it wrong.
Sam Dunning: loads of things. Some of the some of the primary targets for kind of getting SEO wrong, I suppose. It’s when One of the common situations for B2B companies is they perhaps neglect SEO because SEO often gets put right to the bottom of the barrel when it comes to marketing spend. Like you’ll have, I don’t know, paid ads, maybe Google paid search, maybe events marketing, maybe influencer marketing, maybe you’re doing outbound sales, maybe you’re investing in paid review sites, maybe LinkedIn ads, maybe you’re doing some media, some PR. and right at the bottom, if any, SEO gets the very last crunch of the budget. Now, what that often means is that it just gets forgotten about. until eventually maybe the founder or the exec team are like, Oh, I keep seeing competitors above us when folks are searching for what we do or how we help or stacking us up us against competitors. So I really think we need to do some SEO. So they’ll go to the marketing leader, be it a one person marketing team or bigger. This marketing person probably have 97 other jobs on their task list for the month. And then they’ll say, can we do some SEO? And the marketer will be like, sure, I’m a bit busy, but I’ll try and do some SEO for you. And then they’ll go ahead, they’ll fire up a tool like hrefs or SEMrush. And they’ll look for an industry based keyword. won’t be too much thought behind it. They’ll probably just look for a keyword that drives a lot of traffic has a good few monthly searches, but it’s quite easy, like low keyword difficulty, it’s quite easy to rank for. They’ll find an article that hits that criteria, chuck it into chat GPT, blast out an article, publish it on the website a few days later, and then get back to their 97 other marketing tasks for the month. A few months ago by and the leader that tasks them with it was so how’s SEO going? And the marketers will say, well, yeah, I did some SEO, publish the page. It’s getting a bit of search traffic. Here you go. And the leadership folk might say, well, how many leads did it drive? To which they’ll say, well, none. He didn’t ask me to drive any leads. He just said, quote, unquote, do some SEO. I did some SEO. And I think that’s just where it goes, goes far wrong, because it’s not done at a strategic level. So it’s kind of looked at as this kind of bottom of the barrel marketing activity and therefore given very limited time or limited resource or limited budget. And therefore, as a result, it’s not done strategically. So folks end up going for kind of high traffic search terms, but they’re like long tail search queries, like how to do something or best way to do something or informational based search queries. The problem with those, Greg, is at best, that person might flick onto your blog article, pull the information they need. At the very best, they’ll skim it and maybe sign up to your lead magnet or your email list or check out your podcast. At worst, they’ll skim it, get the information they need, and bounce off and get on with their day. And the mistake they’re doing is they’re not going for what’s called bottom of the funnel search queries, i.e., what is a company or a prospect most likely to search when they need our offer now? So what are they searching when they have a high intent to speak to a salesperson around a roffer? And those queries, those bottom of the funnel searches often have way less volume, especially the more specific, the more niche you get to the industries you’re targeting, and all that good stuff, which we’re happy to chat about. Yeah, that’s, yeah, basically, they get it wrong around.
Greg Kihlstrom: And I think another, you know, another thing that you touch on, too, is like this idea of, SEO is something you do. It’s like the the infomercial, like set it and forget it, you know, kind of thing of like, OK, well, I did it. You know, it’s not really something that you do once. And then it’s not like you plant a seed and the tree grows over time with very little effort or whatever. Right. I mean, it’s this is a this is a continuous effort. Right.
Sam Dunning: Exactly, man, exactly. And it’s, like you say, it’s basically seen as a, often seen, not always, some companies do it right, but often seen as a checkbox activity. So it’s like, do a social media post, check, do a blog post, check, SEO’s done. Whereas, like you said, it’s more of a evergreen thing. I often compare it to when you search on YouTube and you search a topic and you might see videos that are a month, two months, even three years old. But that’s the same with SEO. It’s got that value that you can drive traffic and leads for weeks, months, and even years to come through that evergreen content and that asset that is the pages and content of your website being found on Google.
Greg Kihlstrom: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I can’t believe we’re already well into the summer months. Things move so fast. It’s important to take a moment to pause and check in. Is there something you’d like to celebrate so far from the year? And what are some adjustments you might want to make for the rest of the year? Therapy can help you take stock of your progress and set achievable goals for the next six months. You might want to think about your family, your friendships, your personal goals. Where do you feel like you’re making progress and where do you feel like you might be able to use some help? If you’re thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It’s entirely online, and it’s designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists at any time for no additional charge. This summer, take a moment to do this. Stop comparing and start focusing. Visit betterhelp.com slash agility to get 10% off your first month. That’s betterhelp.com slash agility. What’s the state of your website? If you’re looking for a new digital experience platform, or DXP, to run your digital experiences, I have the book for you. The Agile Brand Guide to Digital Experience Platforms is part of my best-selling series of MarTech books. In this book, I explore and demystify DXPs and look at the roles a digital experience platform should play, the different types on the market, as well as how to initially evaluate platforms, then how to best implement a DXP once you’ve selected it. The book also features a forward from Rupali Jain, Chief Product Officer at leading DXP provider Optimizely, as well as several other thought leaders in the industry. Learn more and get a copy in print or digital now by going to the Agile Brand Guide website at www.agilebrandguide.com. You know, I think you kind of touched on this a little bit, but I want to, you recently wrote something about the dangers of vanity driven SEO. Could you talk a little bit more, you know, what do you mean by that term? And you know, what are some of the drivers for that?
Sam Dunning: Yeah, I could probably go off on this whole episode, but that that’s kind of the motivation behind my company. Yeah. So breaking B2B, our headline on our homepage is literally B2B SEO and websites for revenue, not vanity. And I think it was because there was a stage on LinkedIn, Greg, where marketers were just, especially when chat gbt was like at its peak, and AI was at its peak, like a year or so ago, folks were basically posting, like marketers were posting these crazy upward trend organic search traffic graphs. And they were like, we took our website from zero to 50k visits in three months. And then I’d comment on their post saying, Wow, great work. How many leads that drive on the back end, and then that would just be crickets. And it would turn out like these articles would be just really low intent, high search volume. So high traffic queries that were just informational base, like how to do something, or a hot topic at the time that, like I said, will drive a ton of traffic. But at the same time, it risks wasting time, because they’re probably not going to actually drive leads, because the person that’s searching is just looking for information. Also, because they’re written by AI, fairly recently, Google put out a spam update, which if you’re just relying on AI for your copy, and you’re not using direct expertise or authority and kind of getting the content written by someone with some level of subject expertise, you could get penalized. So it’s that kind of thing really where marketers or even agencies just focus on metrics like rankings, organic traffic, aren’t really looking into what are our dream clients, our target clients, the people that actually we want to buy our stuff, what are they searching when they want to speak to a salesperson? Well, they’re searching for our offer. It’s directly related to our industry or to fix a juicy, expensive problem we fix, or maybe they’re stacking us up, comparing us to common alternatives. Like those are the money keywords you should be thinking about rather than just trying to kind of get traffic or people onto your site when they don’t really have any levels of intent and Google search.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah. And so I want to I want to get to AI in a second here. But I think, you know, maybe an example, I know, you talked about the, you know, top of the funnel versus bottom, bottom of the funnel. But do you mind giving? I mean, it can be hypothetical. But do you mind giving an example of, like, what exactly? What would a company do the right way versus the wrong way?
Sam Dunning: Yeah, yeah. And it’s, it’s not to say this is deadly wrong. It’s just to say when you’re starting SEO, and most companies in general are going to have limited resource and budget if they just get dipping their toe in SEO, you want to do stuff that’s going to move the needle fast, drive qualified traffic and leads as quickly as you possibly can. So let’s pretend we were in, let’s pretend, I often use this example, let’s pretend we were a B2B proposal software company. So we basically put out software that helps kind of B2B teams write proposals. So it could be a company like Proposify is a common one, or there’s a bunch of others, right? So an example of a top of funnel query might be how to write sales proposals that close. or how to write better sales proposals that convert or something like that, or even how to write sales proposals. So that that’s what we call kind of top of funnel. It’s an informational based search. If I’m typing how to do something, it’s unlikely I’m looking to speak to a salesperson around the offer. I’m probably expecting to land on an article that explains the process. Right.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah.
Sam Dunning: And yeah, maybe I’ll scroll through, maybe I’ll then check out the YouTube channel, maybe I’ll sign up to their email list, or maybe I’ll grab a lead magnet like, I don’t know, 10 ways to improve your sales proposals, writing skills, whatever. And then I’ll go into their ecosystem, or maybe they’ll retarget me ads, fine. But in my opinion, you’d be better off going for kind of towards the bottom of the funnel keywords or search terms, which might be best proposal writing software, Or niche-specific, i.e. proposal software for HR teams, or proposal software for recruitment companies, or best proposal software for accountancies. So that way someone actually already has already identified they have the problem, they’re already aware they need to get a solution, and at this stage they’re actually searching to find a vendor that can fit that solution. So if you show up for that kind of keyword, you’re much more likely to drive a lead.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, well, and I mean, it seems like, which I think is common with a lot of b2b marketing in general is, you know, you might get lower volume responses, but you’re going to get higher quality responses, right? And I know you’re saying it’s, it’s not 100%, you know, only do it one way or whatever. But the I think the temptation, right, is to, okay, let’s get as much traffic as we can, because, you know, we, we must, we must be able to get a lead if we get a bunch of traffic, but versus thinking, okay, yeah, actually thinking through the thought process of someone that’s further along the funnel, and and stuff. Is that is that kind of the thought process there?
Sam Dunning: Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. And then another common play for I mean, this is more b2b SAS b2b software, another common play as you go for keywords like you, as we touched on earlier, in the b2b space, you because there’s multiple decision makers, usually when b2b folks are looking to invest in a solution, be it service, be it tech, be it software, they normally compare three to four vendors. So another like bottom of the funnel play you can look at is versus or alternative keywords where companies are already researching three or four vendors, but they’re on the, on the fence about who they should choose. So they search keywords like competitor alternative, but in the proposal software space, that might be propose a fire, propose a fire alternative or. They might search for pricing, like Proposify pricing. And then those searches usually bring up what we call listicles, where they compare like the top 10 options and usually position your own offers as section one within that. But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of strategies and tactics you can play at the bottom of the funnel. But ultimately, it’s about understanding what your target clients actually search for when they have a decent level of intent to speak to a salesperson, and they’re using Google search as the method to find that.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah. So I want to get back to the topic of AI. And, you know, so you already, you touched on this. And, you know, one of the common themes just in general is, you know, I’m, I’m a huge fan of AI in inappropriate use cases, let’s say, but there’s a lot of potential use cases, some of them better than others. And so, you know, it makes, it makes creating content just really easy to do, right? It reduces a lot of barriers there, but… to that point, and what you were saying earlier, it also means we’re just kind of flooded with a bunch of mediocre content, right? You know, there’s some great content out there, of course, but like, there’s a lot of crap, for lack of a better term. So like, what’s, what’s, what’s a b2b marketer to do, you know, in other words, like, on the one hand, their job is made so much easier. And there’s some tools out there that, you know, can you can work your keywords in and even with like a chat GPT or Gemini or something, you can tell it what keywords to use. So you know, there’s, there’s all these like benefits out there. And yet, now we’re talking, you know, get potentially getting penalized if it’s as you know, it’s if contents AI generated, you know, what, what should B2B marketers kind of be focused on right now?
Sam Dunning: I would say if you wanna use AI in your workflow, when it comes to SEO, there’s nothing wrong with that. And like you say, there are ways that you can use it as a keyword research tool. You can use it to help you draft outlines for blog articles or landing pages, like it might help you write up ideas for your meta title and your meta description, maybe your H1 tag and the rest of your heading tags. It might even give you kind of a guideline or format for pages. But the thing to be careful with is if you think of it from your own perspective, and let’s say we were going down the route of looking for a proposal software vendor, and let’s say we ran a sales team and we searched, like, best proposal software for sales team, but we land on this landing page, and it’s just using words like, are you ready to 25X and turbocharge your sales process today? Use our all-in-one wizardry. You’ll become a sales proposal wizard with our magnifying 20X solution. And you land on this page, and you’re like, what the heck, this doesn’t even make sense. And then you see all these rocket emojis and like sparklers and stuff. And you’re like, this was written by a robot. So it’s not even the fact that you can use AI like to completely write a copy. And yes, some of those pages might even rank for kind of some more easier to rank terms. But look at it from a prospect potential client perspective. If they’re landing on that page and it’s got that kind of jargon, are they really going to stay on it for longer than a couple of seconds or are they just going to bounce and go to a competitor that actually understands their world, their pain points, their frustrations, someone that actually understands their jobs to be done, their goals, their motivations, that’s kind of building trust with social proof, like testimonials, reviews, outcomes, sharing the product and giving clear call to action to take the next step. For myself, I’d much rather go with someone that’s kind of written a page, be it an article, be it a solution page, be it a landing page, but knows my world, i.e. knows the problems I’m facing and the impact of the problems and the end route that I want to get to, as opposed to someone that’s using all these crazy words I’d probably never say in a normal conversation.
Greg Kihlstrom: Right, right. Well, and I mean, it kind of goes back to the, you know, I would say the recurring theme here is, you know, as a As a customer, I think you already nailed it as far as they have a problem to solve and they just want real information. As a B2B marketer, what is the problem that you’re trying to solve? Are you just trying to get traffic to a page? In which case, yeah, sure. If you’re able to fool the search engines, because they’re going to get way smarter pretty soon, if not already. about all this AI-generated stuff. If you’re just trying to get impressions and clicks, then cool, keep doing what you’re doing. But that can’t really be the goal, right? If you’re a cohesive sales and marketing organization, people are going to see conversion rates are just abysmal. You might get a ton of traffic, but conversion rates are terrible. So B2B marketers are not going to win at this at this game, unless they actually are creating valuable content. I know I’m, you know, preaching to the choir here, but like, that’s, you know, that it just, I think it just kind of comes, comes back to, you know, it may be easier to do, but it really just comes down to good content, right? I mean, isn’t that the just fundamental thing?
Sam Dunning: Yeah, I suppose I’m one of those weird SEO guys, because I’ve got, because I’m a founder and also because I’ve got a sales background, like before I got into B2B marketing a few years ago, I’ve had various sales roles. So I really know the frustration of running a sales team and kind of starving them of leads or when the website just isn’t producing kind of sales calls for days, weeks, let alone months on end. So, I always think like, if we’re going to work with an organization, that’s probably the top of their mind, and that’s probably on the top of their exec team’s mind, and likewise, probably on their board’s mind, or their investors, depending on how they’re set up. And to your point, yeah, I mean, customer research is so often neglected, not just in SEO, it’s neglected in SEO all the time, in content writing, content creation, but also across the board in B2B marketing. So, so many folks are just guessing what they think their dream clients care about, what their problems are, their frustrations. their goals, their jobs to be done and, and the, the kind of gap from where they are and where they want to get to, but. Customer research is so often undervalued. And if you can really get those main top three problems, folks care about impact and not, not solving them where they want to get to their common questions, their common objections on sales calls. And if you can weave that into your content in general, not just on your website, on your articles, your landing pages and such, but also throughout your ads and your other media, then. you’re likely to be so much more ahead of your competitors just because prospects will see that you understand their world. And that is often neglected in B2B in general.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, thinking out a couple of years here, you know, how is SEO impacted by AI? You know, I think in the short term, we’ve kind of touched on this. And, you know, I do think Google’s getting smarter and, you know, so on and so forth. But it’s like, you know, what, what is the role of, of a, you know, chat GPT, or whatever interface versus a browser search? And you know, where do you see things headed over the next couple years?
Sam Dunning: Yeah, it’s hard to say. It’s hard to say. I mean, the interesting thing that we’ve seen recently is that Google rolled out AI overviews. Yeah. And For anyone that’s not familiar with it is basically you can do a search on Google. And usually it’s for things like if you’re searching for restaurants or cuisine or gyms near you or that kind of stuff or holiday plans. And they’ll basically give an instant overview. So instead of doing the search, clicking enter, and then having to troll through some search results. completely above the fold, you get a generative explanation and it’ll give a full explanation above the fold so you don’t have to scroll without having to click a link or go through to a website. And sometimes it has a couple of supporting links of articles that back up the information, but they rolled it back because it was giving so much false information. Like, you can type in stuff like how to make a pizza, then it will tell you to like, get some PVA glue and like glue it to the base of the pizza and stuff like that. And people are like going crazy on Reddit and all these forums. And I think Google have rolled it back to only 7% of search results now show the instant AI overviews answers. Yeah. But obviously, AI is going to come on and come on in the weeks and months and years to come. So there will be more of instant results. And what’s to say that Google might lose some some market share to some of the AI search tools that probably is fairly likely. But I think it comes down to a lot of it’s going to be that if you’re putting out a lot of top of funnels, when I say that, more informational, easily searchable content that an AI tool or computer could generate, then the chances are your website traffic and leads in general could be penalized because of that. Because basically the content you’re putting out is easily answerable by a robot. But when you get to more specific, more niche relevant, um, more customer relevant content, that’s kind of directly tied into what your customers care about, their problems, their objections, their goals, along with your niche and your offer. And you make it specific to that and it’s backed by customers. So that’s probably where you’re going to win more in SEO with the commercial value in mind. Basically stuff that can’t just be spat out in a few seconds by a robot or a tool.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Well, Sam, thanks so much for joining today. One last question before we wrap up here, given a lot of great advice and insights already, but for those out there listening that want to improve their SEO, what’s one next best action that you’d recommend?
Sam Dunning: SEO in general, probably the best thing you can do is experiment yourself. So, I mean, there’s tons of resources. There’s endless resources to learn, but the best thing, like, my SEO probably improved the most when I tried to do stuff myself, be it, I know if you’re a marketer in a business, you might be limited, but perhaps you could do your own website, try and rank that, or your own blog site, or something similar, or maybe you have got free reign on your own site, and maybe you just look, you do a bit of research, or maybe you think, I’m gonna go after this commercial value keyword, I understand this is probably something that prospects are going to search for when they have some level of intent to speak to a salesperson. Why not spend some time evaluating what’s ranking well for that keyword in the search engines already? Look to create content that’s way better, more helpful, informative, useful than that current page that’s ranking organic top. publish it, see how you go, learn from your mistakes, see what works, see what doesn’t, keep improving it, keep messing around with us. That’s the best way you can learn SEO. The same for link building and stuff like that. Like, there’s no better way to do that. I mean, we’ve we’ve got plenty of resources on breaking b2b.com on the newsletter tab, but there’s no better way than kind of experimenting yourself to see what works and what doesn’t.
