This episode is brought to you by Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions.
We’ve talked about volatile job markets before on this show, but has it been anything like what is currently going on? What should marketers looking for employment be expecting, and what should employers looking to hire be looking out for in the months ahead?
Today we’re going to talk about the current state of hiring for marketers, and how communication execs are responding to the latest developments in the world while still needing to get their work done.
To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome back to the show Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions.
Resources
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Resources
Greg Kihlstrom:
This episode is brought to you by Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions. We’ve talked about volatile job markets before on this show, but has it been anything like what is currently going on? What should marketers looking for employment be expecting? And what should employers looking to hire be looking out for in the months ahead? Today, we’re going to talk about the current state of hiring for marketers and how communication execs are responding to the latest developments in the world while still needing to get their work done. To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome back to the show, Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions. Sue, welcome back to the show.
Sue Keith: Thanks, Greg. It’s always fun to chat with you.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I’m looking forward to talking with you again. For those that missed one of our previous conversations, why don’t you start with giving a little background on yourself and what you’re currently doing?
Sue Keith: Sure. Land& Talent is a national recruiting firm that specializes in two functional areas, HR and marketing, which is the practice I lead. As our listeners know, marketing is a pretty big category. So we see it as four categories, marketing, communications, product, and creative. And we place full-time contract and fractional positions within those buckets. Our whole team is all former marketers, myself included. So we like to say we speak the language. And I think our clients would agree that we’re pretty good matchmakers.
Greg Kihlstrom: All right, great. So yeah, let’s let’s dive in here. And, you know, as I mentioned at the top of the show, I want to talk about the state of hiring. So what is the state of hiring for marketers in today’s volatile environment? You know, let’s let’s let’s use that term.
Sue Keith: Right. Well, it’s definitely an interesting time to be talking about hiring, especially as you and I both sit here in D.C. Right. As I’ve mentioned several times on the show, the job market for marketers for the last few years has been pretty tough as companies pull back on marketing investments and marketing people. You know, for smaller companies, this pullback was mostly in response to their investors demanding their portfolio companies show a path to profitability versus that, you know, previously it was like grow at all costs, no matter what it costs. And then for larger companies, I think it was more in anticipation of a recession that the pundits were all predicting, but didn’t actually materialize. Now, I should note that I’m talking about the last few years and not the current state with all the new warnings about a pending recession. And I think kind of a combination of ironically and somewhat sadly, Our team was cautiously optimistic about the hiring market as we headed into 2025. Because, you know, no matter how you feel about the election results, a Republican win is typically considered positive by the business community. So we’re expecting a resurrection of investment in strategic initiatives and technology and in hiring. We’d also seen a renewed interest in several roles, so specifically partner marketing, which I think is a a reflection of companies deciding not to rely solely on their direct sales team, or perhaps maybe put all their eggs into their channel partners. We saw event marketing roles coming back as events become, you know, five years post COVID where they’re back, and then also content strategy. But, you know, the current climate, shall we say, has and as you just said, has created a lot of uncertainty. And this uncertainty is keeping companies on the sidelines. So, you know, Doge’s cuts are certainly having a measurable impact on the D.C. market, but it’s also having far reaching reverberations in many states across the country.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, and yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, I, I don’t like getting too political on the show, but it’s, it’s hard to avoid, you know, some of this talk and what we’re talking about, you know, there’s, in addition to what you mentioned, as far as kind of, some uncertainty around recession or not. There’s also, you know, there’s been various executive orders that relate to some of them, maybe not as close relations to the job market, particularly the marketing job market, but others do have an impact. How are you seeing communication execs responding to those, you know, to the various executive orders that have been coming out?
Sue Keith: Well, we’ve been hosting virtual roundtables with CMOs since COVID. And as I mentioned, we just passed the five-year anniversary of when the WHO declared COVID a pandemic. So it’s kind of crazy. It feels like it was both yesterday and 20 years ago. So after we’ve been talking to CMOs for all these years, every month, late last year, we decided to add communications execs to the mix for 2025. Little do we know at that time, we’d have so much to talk about. We’ve hosted two roundtables so far this year with comms leaders, and they really cover a diverse range of industries. So on the commercial side, B2B and B2C, to B2G, government contractors who are quite in the crosshairs right now. to nonprofits and associations. And, you know, we cover a lot of ground during these conversations, but I’ll give you the kind of the, the, the, the hottest topics, if you will. The first is what I’ll call, I call fluidity. So as one of the participants said, and I love this quote, the ability to have agility is especially critical right now as a new administration induces New mandates, reverses mandates, new policies that are impacting companies. Internal communications was another topic. So everyone at these meetings is responsible also for employee communications as well as external messaging. And interesting enough, back to COVID, several of the participants said it feels like it’s COVID all over again, where you need to communicate with your employee base, but things are changing at such a rapid pace, it’s difficult to know what to say and when to say it. But I thought this was an interesting point. Several of them mentioned, said, as an anchor in all this volatility, they’re focusing on their company’s values to continue to inform their strategic decisions. That kind of leads into the next one, which is DEI messaging. So not surprisingly, one of the hottest topics was how companies are reevaluating their DEI initiatives and adjusting their external messaging. And, you know, some of these folks have replaced the term diversity with language that’s just broad and inclusive. Others have removed DEI language entirely from their websites. So you see companies responding in different ways. And, you know, one of the leaders on these calls said something I thought, it was an insight that was spot on. She said, Right now, it’s not a question of right or wrong. It’s a question of the leadership team’s risk tolerance. So that’s how each company is approaching, approaching this. And it also, this varies depending on the industry. You know, as I mentioned, government contractors are in the crosshairs right now. So they’re going to have, you know, they’re going to have to really consider their risk tolerance more than, so than some other industries or other companies. You know, another interesting topic, and for me, it was pretty unexpected, was influencers. So I feel like, you know, influencer marketing is like the Phoenix. Every year the marketing pundits predict its demise and it always rises back from the ashes. Um, but if you think about it, it really makes sense, you know, as more and more people, your buyers get there and your stakeholders get their news and information and misinformation from social channels. That means they’re putting their trust in the people they follow. So communicating your messages through those followers has become a critical component of an external messaging strategy. And this applies to all sectors. Influencer marketing is no longer just a strategy for big consumer brands.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, to the, to the point of agility and, and, you know, the, the need to be able to be nimble in, in these times, I mean, you know, one of the characteristics, let’s just say right now is just kind of the rapidity of how things are maybe changing and then sometimes changing back and then sometimes changing yet back again, or just how rapid things are being rolled out. Maybe there’s a few different mindsets here. You know, there could be the, okay, let’s wait and see and just kind of see how things shake out. Or there could be the more reactive, like, okay, this happened today. We gotta jump on this and have an answer within hours. Are there any common themes? There are threads like, are leaders being more reactive? Are they being a little more cautious and just kind of letting things shake out? Or maybe all of the above?
Sue Keith: I’d say all the above, D. What we’re seeing is both. So there are companies who sell to government agencies who have just done preemptive layoffs. Uh, I, you know, I have a good friend who just got caught up in just basically, I think she said that any position that that company was filling on behalf of whatever agency it was, if it had the term consultant in it, I think it was, they just got axed. And so the companies that, you know, are looking at these executive orders, which have direct impact on the agencies they support, the government agencies they support, and are really doing some preemptive, perhaps reactive things. I’d say if you’re not in the business of selling to the government, I don’t think we’ve seen a much different reaction. It’s just more a continuation of what we’ve been seeing over the past, few years, like I mentioned, companies, you know, they continue to be reluctant to invest in new people while the political and economic environment is so unstable.
Greg Kihlstrom: So I think this is a recurring theme whenever you and I, I chat, but all of this aside, and you know, there’s, there’s no matter what’s going on, there’s always going to be something happening that is a reason to pull back or push or whatever. But what does all this mean for those marketing and comms leaders that. you know, they still need to get worked on, there’s still widgets to be sold, or, you know, whatever the case may be, you know, what does this mean for those leaders that, you know, they still have to get stuff done, but maybe their staff is more limited, or, you know, what, what do you recommend there?
Sue Keith: So, as I mentioned, we support contract fractional and full-time roles. So we cover all types of hiring needs. And I’m gonna take this back to COVID again, just like during COVID, especially in the early year or two of COVID, we’ve seen an uptick in our clients requesting interim support for the last couple of years. And we’re seeing it even more so now. And that’s because when everything’s uncertain and headcount is really impossible to get, but as you said, the work still needs to get done. So, um, a contractor, an interim contractor is a really good solution there. So, you know, while sometimes this, the need is, is temporary, say it’s an attorney leave coverage, or you’ve just got to get some people to help with a product launch, that’s got some finite time periods to it. You know, oftentimes what we’re seeing is a hiring manager really wants to hire a full-time person, but couldn’t get the headcount approved. So what they’re doing is they use their own budget to bring on a contractor, which avoids any tricky negotiations with HR, which means they’re dipping into their own program dollars and they’re striking a balance between investing in those programs and investing in people to help execute those campaigns. The other interesting thing we’re seeing is what I’m calling a proof of concept. So in this case, again, the hiring manager doesn’t have headcount, but they really need to get work to get done. So what they’re doing is they’re bringing in a contractor, one, to get the work done, but two, to demonstrate to leadership the value of having someone in that position, and they use that evidence, if you will, to eventually secure headcount. We’ve actually seen this strategy be effective numerous times with our clients.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah. What about, I know we’ve talked a bit about fractional roles in the past. Is there, I mean, it sounds like there’s interest in contractor roles for the reasons you just mentioned. Are you seeing interest in fractional roles in general versus, you know, times in the past?
Sue Keith: Yes, and I think it’s a combination of two things. One, the definition of fractional has been broadened to basically replace the word contractor, unless you truly are a fractional CMO or CXO, insert X. And so there’s that. There’s two is, like I just said, a lot of companies, a lot of CMOs or CCOs can’t get headcount approved, but they can use their own budgets. Typically, the budget for a contractor comes out of your bucket, not the HR headcount bucket. And then three, there are so many people on the market that they’ve all hung their fractional shingles. So it’s definitely very, it’s a hot, hot market at the moment.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we’ve been talking from the employer perspective on a switch gears here, and let’s talk about this from the job seeker. market, certainly, you know, again, with with a lot of a lot of the layoffs, but you know, particularly, you know, as you mentioned, both of us sitting here in DC, there’s very particular, kind of bent to that conversation. But what can job seekers do in, you know, what seems to be I know, it feels like we always say this, but like, an increasingly challenging market, you know, what should job seekers be doing now?
Sue Keith: Sure. Well, the first thing I tell everyone we talk to, because we talked to so many really talented marketers who just cannot find a job. They get some interest, they might be a finalist, and then something goes bump in the night. The first thing I say is, it’s not you, it’s truly them. It is really a tough, I’d say unforgiving market. The next thing our team recommends is you be disciplined. You know, your job is defined a job. So you want to set aside specific time blocks, time periods with very clear actions and hold yourself accountable. But also give yourself some breaks. Just don’t sit going at it for eight hours a day. Um, you really like do it for, you know, X number of hours and then take a break and do something that’s distracting, which ultimately I think you’ll just feel better in general, which means your job search might go better and eventually you’ll interview better. We just talked about this. If you can, um, be open to contract roles, you know, as we talked about way more prevalent than full-time positions right now. It also gives you something to put in your resume, expose you to a whole new, potentially a whole new network of people and could possibly convert to a full-time position, back to my proof of concept talk. You’ll not be surprised when I say network, network, and network some more. And then there’s, I’ll add a twist to this, ask for help. I’ve noticed an interesting paradox. People don’t like to ask others for help, but most people like to help others. So, you know, ask a former colleague, even if you haven’t talked to that person in five years, to connect you with someone at the company you’re interested in, ask someone you trust, introduce you to groups they’re part of, et cetera. You just ask for a connection, some sort of support, and most people want to help. I mean, the worst thing that’ll happen is you get ignored. That’s really the worst thing.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, I love that. I love that. But just to cut in first, like, just I love that advice. And, you know, so a good friend of mine gave me similar advice years and years ago, she moved from Alaska to the big city, you know, DC or whatever. And characterizes it as this, like, she didn’t know that you couldn’t reach out to the CEO of a company and just ask for help for something. And amazingly got a lot of her so not everybody responded, of course, but like got so many responses of people just being willing to help. So like, I always keep that in mind of, there are a lot of like, I know, you know, I do my best to do the same in my own way, you know, to respond to questions and stuff. But you know, I’ve been helped by so many people that really, I, I doubted they would even like, respond to my LinkedIn message or email or whatever. So I definitely just want to want to pile on to that one.
Sue Keith: Yeah, just ask, ask, what’s that? What’s that line we use? If you don’t ask, you don’t get right, right. The other, another idea is create your own networking group of job seekers. So it’s another way to expand your network, or as we say in marketing, reach. You know, and this is, especially if you’re uncomfortable networking with strangers. I mean, there are a lot of people that is really uncomfortable. So pull in people you know. And then those people can bring in their their context to expand the group. So that’s another way. And again, I’ve watched people do this. It also is just it’s a nice way. And we do this once a month with job seekers is virtually as we bring together directors and above who are job seeking. And it is the feedback we’ve gotten. I mean, we can only help so many people get a job, but we’ve gotten some really nice feedback from folks who just thank you for giving me a place of other people in the same boat as me. Yeah. You know, I call it networking advice and commiseration. So You know, create your own little networking group of job seekers if you’re comfortable doing that. Another option, volunteering. Great way to meet people and network. There are tons of professionals who volunteer. Plus, again, too, you can put it on your resume and it might be something, whatever you’re doing might resonate with whoever’s reading your resume. You know, here, I have a real life example. So my colleague recently joined the board of a nonprofit and within, I think a couple of weeks, one of her fellow board members became a candidate we presented for one of our positions. So I can’t promise that’s going to happen, but volunteering, and you’re also going to feel good about yourself. And it’s a nice way of take a break from the job seeking. You know, another thing I, I’ve talked to several people about who’ve done this. You might want to take a part-time job. Now, less for the money. It’s more about getting out of the house, you know, taking a break from the job seeking, like we mentioned, meeting new people. One marketer told me she’s really enjoying serving as a mentor to the more junior people who work at, I think it was William Sonoma. But one thing I should mention, you clearly need to understand the implications of taking a job if you’re receiving unemployment benefits. So I just wanted to make that note. Because for some people, it might not be worth it. And then here’s my last piece of advice. I strongly recommend keeping politics out of your LinkedIn posts. It’s really important to remember that about, let’s say, half of the audience will be on the other side of wherever you stand. So it’s just really risky.
Greg Kihlstrom: Yeah, yeah, that’s great, great advice and some, yeah, some great ideas there. And to, you know, as we wrap up here, you know, I know we’ve talked about a lot of the challenges and certainly, you know, there might be some more challenges yet to come, but, you know, to kind of end on a positive note, I guess a question for you, you know, what are some bright spots that those listening should consider?
Sue Keith: I’m glad you asked this question because I feel like I’m often the voice of doom during our conversation. At least I have been for the last couple of years. So one positive, and again, I’m going to go back to something we just talked about fairly ad nauseum. While full-time jobs may be hard to find, there are a lot of freelancing contract opportunities out there. And I’m wondering too, if they will stay, those opportunities will stay out there because as more and more companies experiment with using contractors instead of full-time people, that may just become their norm. So definitely be open to that and make sure people know you’re open to that. So not everybody assumes, if they see you looking for a full-time job, not everyone will assume that you’re actually open to a contract engagement. So make sure people know that. And then we almost got through this without mentioning AI, but here we go.
Greg Kihlstrom: All right, all right, good one.
Sue Keith: AI is also an opportunity. So I like to say candidates should become conversant in AI. Actually, I’ll expand that to all marketers, not just candidates. Not an expert, I’m not sure anyone can be, but knowledgeable enough to talk about the use of AI in marketing strategy during interviews. Because you should assume you will be asked about AI during an interview. Just assume it and be ready for it. You know, you’ve probably heard that saying that says you’re not going to lose your job to AI, but you may lose it to someone who knows AI. I tweak that say you’re not going to lose a job opportunity to AI, but you may lose to a candidate who knows AI. So be as conversant as you can.
Greg Kihlstrom: Love it. Well, Sue, thanks again for joining today. One very last question. I know I asked this to everybody, but since you’ve been on the show before, I know I’ve asked it to you before, but there’s, as with agility and improvement, might have a slightly different answer this time. So what do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
Sue Keith: Yeah, well, one of the, I do love this question. One of the cool things about my job is I get to create a lot of thought leadership, which means I’m constantly talking with marketing communication leaders about the trends they’re seeing, the issues they’re grappling with, right now doge. So while I myself may not do marketing per se anymore, this allows me to talk marketing every day with really interesting people. And if you don’t mind, I have a shameless plug. To that point, I talked about the round tables we’re doing with communications executives, and we also do them with marketers almost every month. If you want to find the recaps of those conversations, they’re on our blog page at LandrumTalentSolutions.com.
