My guest today has been keeping us up to date with the current state of hiring for marketers on a quarterly basis, which has taken us on quite a roller coaster ride.
Today we’re going to look at how marketing and communication execs are responding to the latest developments in the world while still needing to get their work done.
To take a look at the latest here, I’d like to welcome back to the show Sue Keith, Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions.
About Sue Keith
Sue Keith is Corporate Vice President at Landrum Talent Solutions. With deep expertise in navigating complex labor markets, Sue has a front-row seat to the evolving dynamics of marketing roles, hiring trends, and the broader implications of AI and economic uncertainty.
Resources
Landrum Talent Solutions: https://www.landrumtalentsolutions.com https://www.landrumtalentsolutions.com
This episode is brought to you by Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions. https://www.landrumtalentsolutions.com
Catch the future of e-commerce at eTail Boston, August 11-14, 2025. Register now: https://bit.ly/etailboston and use code PARTNER20 for 20% off for retailers and brands
Online Scrum Master Summit is happening June 17-19. This 3-day virtual event is open for registration. Visit http://www.osms25.com and get a 25% discount off Premium All-Access Passes with the code osms25agilebrand
Don’t Miss MAICON 2025, October 14-16 in Cleveland – the event bringing together the brights minds and leading voices in AI. Use Code AGILE150 for $150 off registration. Go here to register: https://bit.ly/agile150
Connect with Greg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregkihlstrom
Don’t miss a thing: get the latest episodes, sign up for our newsletter and more: https://www.theagilebrand.show
Check out The Agile Brand Guide website with articles, insights, and Martechipedia, the wiki for marketing technology: https://www.agilebrandguide.com
The Agile Brand is produced by Missing Link—a Latina-owned strategy-driven, creatively fueled production co-op. From ideation to creation, they craft human connections through intelligent, engaging and informative content. https://www.missinglink.company
Transcript
Greg Kihlstrom (00:00)
This episode is brought to you by Landrum Talent Solutions, a national recruiting firm specializing in marketing and HR positions. My guest today has been keeping us up to date with the current state of hiring for marketers on a quarterly basis, which has taken us on quite a roller coaster ride. Today, we’re going to look at how marketing and communication execs are responding to the latest developments in the world while still needing to get their work done. To take a look at the latest here, I’d like to welcome back to the show, Sue Keith, corporate vice president at Landrum Talent Solutions.
Sue, welcome back to the show.
Sue Keith (00:31)
Thanks, Craig. It was great to talk to you. I’m laughing a little bit about the roller coaster because that is very true.
Greg Kihlstrom (00:37)
Yep. Maybe there’s other maybe there’s other metaphors as well, but we’ll stick with we’ll stick with an amusement park for now. So for those that haven’t caught you on the show before, why don’t we start with you giving a little background on yourself and your role at Landrum Talent Solutions?
Sue Keith (00:52)
Sure. Well, actually on career number three, and I like to say only the first one was intentional, I have a dual degree in accounting and French, which I know is a weird combination. And I started my career in audit at Deloitte. And then I stumbled into a reporting job in the marketing department of MCI, which was a large telecom company that certain people of a certain age may remember. And that kickstarted my marketing career. And then for the last 12 years, I’ve been with Landrum Talent, as you said, a national recruiting firm that specializes in two functional areas, HR and marketing. Marketing is the practice that I lead.
And marketing is a big category. So we see it as four buckets, marketing, communications, product, and creative. And then we place full-time contract and fractional positions within those areas.
Greg Kihlstrom (01:30)
Great, great. So yeah, let’s as we’ve done, you know, as I mentioned, you know, as we as we do on a quarterly basis here, let’s check in and talk about state of hiring for marketers today. Where do things stand and what’s changed from a marketing hiring manager or a leader’s perspective since we spoke a few months ago?
Sue Keith (01:51)
Not much has changed, unfortunately. Given the political and economic uncertainty that we continue to operate under, companies are still sitting on the sidelines. Meaning, and what I mean by that is they’re holding off on making investments, which includes hiring. As we’ve talked about on past shows, unfortunately marketing, the marketing function, I’d say, has been hit particularly hard. And as you know, being here in Washington with me, the doge cuts to federal agencies have been pretty brutal.
And we’re also seeing government contractors, you there’s companies that sell products or services to the federal government during preemptive layoffs with the expectation that some of their major programs may be cut. And there’s another contributing factor at the macro level. People simply aren’t leaving their jobs. So if you think about how voluntary attrition is usually a normal part of any hiring cycle, people come and go from jobs throughout the year, but people are really spooked right now. So if you’re in a steady job, you’re staying put, even if you’re really unhappy.
That all said, I hope I’m not jinxing us by saying that the uncertainty seems to be slowing down a little bit. The administration has backed off on some of more extreme tariffs and policies. The market has mostly recovered, although it could be down a thousand points right now as I’m saying this. Honestly, some of the administration’s actions are becoming normalized. We’re cautiously optimistic about the second half of this year when it comes to a pickup and hire.
Greg Kihlstrom (02:56)
Right. Yeah. So how are marketing leaders adapting hiring strategies in response to some of these things that you just mentioned?
Sue Keith (03:13)
We’ve talked about this before. many marketing leaders are being asked to do more with less. It’s become a bit of a mantra in the marketing world. When someone says that phrase, everyone nods knowingly. Marketing teams are being stretched really thin. They’ve had layoffs or they’ve had people leave, although I just got done saying no one’s leaving, but occasionally someone does. And they haven’t been able to backfill those positions. But the expectations of what marketing is supposed to deliver are just as high or sometimes higher than ever before.
So to get their work done, marketing execs are turning to contractors to help fill the gaps when they can’t get headcount approval to hire full-time positions. So what does that mean? They’re using their own budgets to bring out a contractor, thus avoiding any tricky negotiations with HR, which means they’re dipping into their own program dollars and striking a balance between investing in programs and investing in people to help execute those campaigns. The other interesting thing we’re seeing is what I call a proof of concept.
So this situation, the hiring manager, like I said, can’t get approval to hire for a position they really need on their team. So they bring in a contractor to demonstrate to their leadership team, to their management team, the value of having someone in that position, and then use that proof, if you will, to eventually secure the headcount. And we’ve seen this strategy be effective numerous times with our clients. And what’s really interesting in a perverse way is that this spike in demand for contractors is very similar to what we experienced during the first year of COVID.
We’re coming to put all hiring like fully on hold, but our clients came to us because they still needed to get the work done. So they brought in contractors because that was the most effective way to have enough people to get their jobs done without being allowed to hire full-time employees. So it’s a bit of deja vu for our team right now.
Greg Kihlstrom (04:53)
Yeah, yeah. You know, on this show, we talk quite a bit about AI and, I would consider myself generally an optimist when it comes to things like that. But there, you know, there are many that have been saying, you know, AI is going to kill marketing some slightly less extreme things, but still kind of towards towards the same ends. You know, first is is that hyperbole or is there truth to it? And, you know, how soon is as soon?
Sue Keith (05:20)
So this is a hot button issue for me. You’re right. There’s a narrative out there that AI is going to eventually replace the marketing function. In fact, the AI Marketing Institute just published their 2025 survey, where more than half of the respondents believe that more marketing jobs will be eliminated by AI than created by AI. Do I believe the entire marketing function will be replaced by robots? No. But I do think it’s important for all of us to acknowledge that certain responsibilities will likely be replaced by AI or agentic technology.
However, and this is where the hot button comes in, I think it’s also really important that we, as marketing leaders, or former marketing leader in my case, step up and start to reframe that narrative to one that says we’re going to leverage AI to do our jobs better. This may be oversimplifying, but I’ve been saying we need to demonstrate that AI will help marketers do marketing better.
Greg Kihlstrom (06:09)
Yeah, definitely. so, know, to that point, how should marketer marketing leaders respond to this and, know, and do what do what you’re talking about there?
Sue Keith (06:19)
So boards, CEOs, CFOs are all asking their functional leaders, all functional leaders, whether it be marketing, finance, HR, ops, to show how they’re incorporating AI in order to run their teams more efficiently and or more effectively. And the unspoken part of that question is, can you use AI to do your jobs with fewer people? The majority of the marketing leaders I talk with, we host a CMO roundtable every month.
are still talking about using AI to generate more content faster, content and or imagery. That’s not the answer your CFO is looking for and it’s not gonna protect your team. So that’s why I’m encouraging all the marketing leaders I talk with to start talking more about what I call strategic use cases for AI. So whether it’s pipeline acceleration, better ICP Intel, hyper personalization, streamlining your overall campaign execution process,
So these are use cases that demonstrate that AI will help marketing contribute even more to the company than ever before. I’d also say your marketing team should have an AI strategy, call it a roadmap, call it a plan, that lays out the AI use cases in your project for the next one or two years. Now, of course, this is best you can, knowing that this technology is changing, getting more intelligent every second. But according to that same Marketing AI Institute report I mentioned, something like
was around 75 % of marketing leaders who responded said they don’t have a plan for incorporating AI into their daily lives, if you will. I also have another recommendation, and I can’t take credit for this. I was listening to CMO Huddle’s podcast, and I think this is a really good idea. So if your company has an AI council, and a lot of companies are doing this, they’re establishing a cross-functional group that’s overseeing AI strategy implementation and governance.
across the entire company, across the enterprise. Make sure you’re a part of that group. In fact, make sure you take on a leadership role in that group. And even better, if your company doesn’t have an AI counsel, whatever you want to call it in place, start one. So position yourself, the marketing leader for the organization, as the leader in your company who’s going to help oversee the strategic imperative for the organization.
It’s smart for a lot of reasons, but if you think about it, if you’re a key member of the overall company’s AI team, you’ll be a part of, and more importantly, you can get ahead of any conversations about AI technology that could affect the people on your team.
Greg Kihlstrom (08:46)
Yeah, yeah, I think I think that’s a great great idea. I mean, you know, be be part of the solution, so to speak. Right.
Sue Keith (08:53)
Exactly, not the problem.
Greg Kihlstrom (08:55)
In terms of planning out, and I agree with you, it’s good to plan out knowing that, you know, the world’s going to keep evolving and changing, but it’s good to at least have a plan and understand potential implications. One of the things and, you know, there’s been a few high profile articles about this topic as well. One of the one of the particular threats that’s been talked about is just AI being.
a threat to entry level jobs, whether it’s in marketing or otherwise. And so those those recent or soon to be college grads out there, you know, potentially not even getting an opportunity to to get into the workforce because AI is doing some of those those jobs. What should leaders be doing about this as they’re planning, you doing some of the planning that you’ve already talked about?
Sue Keith (09:39)
to admit, I’m not sure I would land on this topic. I struggle to see how it plays out, but I also understand I think it’s going to play out. So I was saying about this. So let’s take an entry level marketing coordinator as an example. So you know, this person is really a jack of all trades. One day they might be working on the logistics for an event. The next day they might be pulling Zoom lists, or Zoom, excuse me, Zoom info lists. And then the next day they might be updating pages on the website. So these are all discrete
and unrelated tasks. So the coordinator is obviously managed by someone who directs their work. So I guess how it would play out with AI, then instead of hiring a human, that manager would use AI agents to do those various tasks that I mentioned. So I guess that’s how this plays out. originally, reacted to, when we were talking about this question, I reacted to thinking, well, that can’t work. You need a human. But I could see a world where that would happen.
Yeah. the other thing you and I briefly talked about, how do you become a seasoned strategic marketer if you haven’t done the stuff, if you haven’t done the entry level stuff and grown into that role? I think someone would have an argument for me with that, but that’s what I struggle a little bit. But to answer the question about what leaders should be doing, I say be prepared for your CFO, your CEO, your board.
basically to challenge you on every headcount request you make. And honestly, to challenge you on the headcount you currently have. So their default response is probably going to be, why can’t AI do that role? So I say, just make sure you have a good answer ready.
Greg Kihlstrom (11:14)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, to to the point, I think there’s lots of things to be uncovered here and discovered as well. But, I think to your point about how do you grow, not only grow as an individual in marketing as to be strategic, but also how do you grow and sustain a sophisticated marketing operation if you don’t know how it’s being done? Right. Exactly. Those are two sides of the same coin, really.
I think to me this this speaks to at the very least. The AI agents and the agentic approach and all that stuff needs to it needs to be very transparent and it needs to teach its managers, whether that’s a marketing manager, director, VP, CMO, whatever level it is. But it needs to be able to talk about what it’s doing so that I mean, a it you know, the the CMO can make sure that.
the right things are being done, but also be to educate those that aren’t familiar with some of the details. In other words, I think AI becomes a teacher and an intern or entry level marketer all at the same time if it’s done successfully. Right. But that’s just a hypothesis. Right. So, yeah, more to come on all of that. But it’s definitely something to consider. And it’s something where
Again, those that are being pressured for reducing headcount, make sure that you have a sustainable plan for the org. If you are replacing with AI, it doesn’t mean it can’t be done. You could come back three years later and realize that you don’t actually know how your marketing work is being done. So, you know, we’ve been talking a lot from the leader and the manager perspective here. What about the job seekers out there? You know, how can job seekers best navigate?
Sue Keith (12:52)
I could be.
Greg Kihlstrom (13:03)
what continues to be a challenging job market.
Sue Keith (13:06)
It certainly continues to be. So let’s lift up from the AI conversation and go back to the overall higher market. My first piece of advice and my probably only piece of, if I had to pick one piece of advice, it’s not revolutionary. It’s not brilliant. It’s to network as hard as you can. Because chances are you are not going to get a job from applying online. It happens, but for applying online for a job with you and 300 of your other marketing friends.
There’s a couple of things you can do. And I know networking just sounds really awful to everybody, but it’s particularly challenging for certain people who just really aren’t comfortable with it. a couple ideas, join professional associations, whatever your functional area is, join this association so they create these built-in networking groups for you. And they also can be a good source of job leads. Volunteer. So I have yet in 12 years to meet somebody who likes looking for a job.
So it can be isolating, it can be frustrating, it can be demoralizing. So if you get out there and volunteer, first of all, it gets you out of the house and away from scrolling LinkedIn. It’s a really good way about feeling how you’ve passed some time in the day. And importantly, you never know who you might meet during those volunteer opportunities who might be connected to someone who could help you. It opens a network that you chances are would never have. And then to the point about certain people really uncomfortable with networking, create your own networking group with other job seekers. I know from a few years ago, a group of about 10 or 12 people who did this, and they all found it to be really helpful. In fact, I think they’ve all, they all landed jobs and they’re still in touch. So especially if what I call cold call networking is really challenging for you with people you don’t know well, you, those people that doing all that makes you uncomfortable. This is a nice way to bring together people you know and have some camaraderie as you go through this process. And then my last piece of somewhat random, but I think is important advice. And I said this last time we talked, I strongly recommend you keep politics out of your LinkedIn posts. So it’s important to be active on LinkedIn, especially if you’re looking for a job. That is important. try to do your best to keep politics out of it. It’s really important to remember that about half the audience on LinkedIn will be on the other side of wherever you stand.
Greg Kihlstrom (15:25)
Yeah, Great, great advice. Well, Sue, thanks as always for joining here. One last question. I know I’ve asked you this before since you’ve been on before, but how are you staying agile in your your role amidst the roller coaster we we mentioned earlier?
Sue Keith (15:42)
Well, apologies to you and our listeners. I’m going back to talking about AI. And I say that facetiously, but I am doing everything I can to stay current on AI. I mean, it could be a 24-7 job if you wanted it to be. But AI is having a significant impact on marketing. I’m hearing it. I’m seeing it. I’m living it. And I really don’t think it’s too dramatic to say that AI is creating an existential crisis for marketing. So as I mentioned, we host virtual CMO roundtables every month and I’m constantly quizzing our participants on how they’re using AI. I’m also sharing with them what I’ve learned about new AI use cases. As I said, I want to talk about more strategic use cases, not, I’ve spit out seven blog posts this week, which would have taken me three weeks earlier, know, prior. But ultimately, I’m going to use a trite term, but it really takes a village when it comes to AI.
