Successful marketers are able to anticipate and act on opportunities and trends, but what happens when the next 10 days can be as difficult to predict as the next 10 years?
Agility requires not only rapid responses to changing market conditions, but also the ability to anticipate and proactively shape those conditions to your advantage. It’s no longer enough to react; you have to predict and influence.
Today, we’re going to talk about navigating the uncertainties of the current digital advertising environment and maximizing ROI when forecasting feels like gazing into a crystal ball.
To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome, Heidi Bullock, CMO at Tealium.
About Heidi Bullock
Currently the CMO of Tealium, a customer data platform (CDP) provider, Heidi Bullock is an experienced marketing executive who has built a 20+ year career working at both global enterprise technology companies and start-ups. Prior, she was the CMO of Engagio, where she was responsible for the go-to-market strategy, product marketing, internal sales, corporate communications and ABM initiatives. Before Engagio, Heidi was the Group Vice President of Global Marketing at Marketo. Heidi has contributed to key thought leadership guides, including the Clear and Complete Guide to ABM Analytics and the Definitive Guide to Account-Based Marketing, Lead Generation, Content, Mobile Marketing, and Engaging Email. Heidi is a frequent speaker and guest lecturer for B2B marketing.
Heidi Bullock on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hbullock/
Resources
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Transcript
Greg Kihlstrom (00:00)
Successful marketers are able to anticipate and act on opportunities and trends, but what happens when the next 10 days can be as difficult to predict as the next 10 years? Agility requires not only rapid responses to changing market conditions, but also the ability to anticipate and proactively shape those conditions to your advantage. It’s no longer enough to react. You have to predict and influence. Today, we’re going to talk about navigating the uncertainties of the current digital advertising environment and maximizing ROI
when forecasting feels like gazing into a crystal ball. To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome back to the show, Heidi Bullock, CMO at Tealium. Heidi, welcome back to the show. think we’re episode three here, so yeah.
Heidi Bullock (00:41)
Yeah, three’s a charm. Thanks for having me, Greg.
Greg Kihlstrom (00:44)
Yeah, always, always love talking with you and looking forward to this. For those that haven’t caught one of your earlier ⁓ shows, why don’t you give a little background on yourself and your role at Tillium.
Heidi Bullock (00:54)
Yeah, sounds great. So I’ve been at Tealium, I think I’m coming up on my sixth year. So yes, CMOs can stay in jobs longer than your two years. And I’ve really been focused on making sure that, you know, obviously we’re growing the business, we’re creating pipeline, but a big ⁓ aspect of that I think is telling the right story to the right audience. And so, you know, obviously using data to do that. So that’s what we’ll talk about more today, but that’s…
That’s really kind of how I think about my job. Yes, it’s driving growth, whether that’s net new or in the customer base, but it’s never just a set of tactics. It’s making sure that you understand what your buyers want. And like we said, delivering that to them on the channels that work the best for them.
Greg Kihlstrom (01:41)
Yeah, yeah. So let’s yeah, we’re going to we’re going to talk about a few a few things today. I want to start with, you know, there’s a lot of talk about uncertainty in the market and, you know, insert market here, whichever one you happen to be talking about. you know, there’s there’s a there’s a lot of talk about that, you know, despite continuously improving technology. Certainly a lot of things have come out, you know, a related, you know, the predictive technologies.
It seems like the world keeps getting harder to predict. What effect is this having on CMOs and other marketing leaders?
Heidi Bullock (02:16)
Well, I think therapy bills are going up, no, just kidding. I think being a CMO these days, or I would say, not just a CMO, but any executive role is probably never been more challenging just because I think there’s so many technologies to stay on top of. There’s a lot of pressure obviously to make sure that the business is successful, but I like to say, don’t panic. We’ll make things practical.
I think for me, the thing I try to do is always go back to the basics and say, look, at the end of the day, you have to know your buyer. And to me, doing that through not only what they tell you, which is great, but we know that sometimes buyers lie. You can ask customers, did they have a great experience? And they’re like, sure, just like at a restaurant, we’ve all said that dish is amazing. And deep down, you’re like, ugh, it’s worst thing I’ve ever had. But really understanding their behavior through their data and having a
good first party data strategy, that’s the first thing I would tell people listening. I think the companies that can do that well will continue to drive growth and be successful. And sometimes the tip is really just get started. I talked to a lot of large enterprises and I think the ones that are doing the best recognize that they’ve invested there and I see the opposite when companies,
they make it such a hard exercise that they almost never get going. And like you said, the world is moving fast. And so they slowly, actually probably more quickly start to fall behind. So I think the key is first party data strategy and really just get going. Don’t wait on it.
Greg Kihlstrom (03:55)
Yeah, and so to do that and to, you know, to better understand customers with this first party data strategy, you know, what does that mean about making choices and sometimes tough choices about customer data and technology and platforms, you know, so that they can maximize ROI? Like, what should they be thinking about there?
Heidi Bullock (04:15)
Yeah, I like that question a lot because I think a mistake that I see a lot of people make is they think technology is the answer, right? They think, okay, I’m gonna buy this particular platform Axiomene. In the past, it could have been marketing automation. It could be, you know what, you can really think about all the different trends. And I think technology is nine times out of 10 never the problem. It’s really making sure that you have the, know, really what your clear goals are.
hey, our goal is to really impact retention this year. You know, be clear on what those goals are and to have, I would say, you know, a center of excellence or a team of people that probably, you know, could involve your IT team, legal team, your marketing, data teams, and make sure that everybody is aligned on that goal, the timeframe, and then really bring in the technology. And I think that often the mistake people make is leading with the technology purchase.
That’s really what I see. But that being said, I think then thinking through, if you’ve got those things in order, really do like technologies like a CDP that can help you collect data, bring all that data together and making sure that it’s transformed and rich, and then being able to activate that data. And I think what’s powerful about that is it will work with your cloud data warehouses. And I think a lot of your listeners, everybody has
for the most part of cloud data warehouse at this point. But I think a CDP can complement it where it’s really making sure that all those signals are being collected and activated in real time. And we’ll probably get into this, but that’s really important when it comes to privacy.
Greg Kihlstrom (05:56)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I totally agree that. I mean, platforms have such a powerful role to play and data has such a powerful role to play. But I think, you know, people and the processes are there often the things that can make or break it. Right. So.
Heidi Bullock (06:12)
It’s just like thinking you’re going to have a better year ahead if you go on a crazy shopping spree. Probably a lot. It’ll filter in a minute. But you know that your new dress or whatever is not going to fix everything. So you’ve really got to start with the people.
Greg Kihlstrom (06:28)
Yeah, yeah. So I also want to talk about, you know, certainly marketers from from an internal company perspective are dealing with a lot of change and volatility, but also, you know, customers are changing and this require and they adapt to some of the some of the same and as well as different external factors. This means we need to be agile with how we target audiences and how we understand those are audiences. So with.
A lot of uncertainty about that as well. How can marketers stay nimble and ensure that their messaging is staying relevant and resonates with audiences knowing that there’s change in the air?
Heidi Bullock (07:10)
And I think I have a really interesting story for you. One of our customers who is using Tillium in the CDP really did a pretty big analysis and it answers this question perfectly. They historically had collected a lot of historical data. And then they also did a comparison with data that they collected in real time in just, let’s say, a period of a day, different time increments.
and they found that data that they collected within 30 seconds was more telling than data they collected on key buyers over 10 years. So the key is really making sure that you can collect and understand that data in real time. And what I mean by that is you can start to see, let’s do some message testing, as simple as this on your website, being able to deliver multiple messages for a particular segment and seeing which performs better.
or even, hey, we see this particular segment tends to really click on this offer versus something else, or they’re looking at these channels maybe on meta over something else. And just having that, I think, in real time and being able to stay agile is essential, especially in the consumer world. And I would argue it’s becoming more of that in B2B as well. But we were blown away when they were talking through that with us because
they’re actually doing a lot of predictive modeling and using, they have their own large language model and they’re using TILIM data to inform that. And that was the experiment. They’re like, wow, the data we collected today is performing better and is more useful than 10 years of historical data. So the message to folks is just make sure that you have a way of understanding those signals in real time. Because as you know, I mean,
you’re a buyer’s behavior, you might say, we’re at work. And of course we’re all focused perfectly. But me, you’re doing a little side-dropping and you’re with something. You don’t want to be retarded for that the next day with a discount. You’re like, already bought that item. So again, I would just really stress that the ability to have real-time data, especially the ability to use and understand first-party data, not data that you’re purchasing to create better and more relevant messages.
understand that the channels, etc.
Greg Kihlstrom (09:30)
Yeah, I I think that’s also really powerful because I mean, there’s there’s a cost to that long term data. You know, it’s it’s I mean, some of it is storing it in the data warehouse or whatever. But there’s also the technical debt of maintaining and understanding and even, you know, you could call it operational debt or there’s all kinds of debt that could be associated with that or even just the legacy of people holding on to. well.
three years ago, we did this thing and it worked this way. And so, you what you’re saying is really powerful in that there is so much benefit to the nearer and real time, near real time data that, it doesn’t mean you throw out the legacy data, you know, per se, but it does mean that there’s a lot of value in speed and flexibility and the closeness of the data, right?
Heidi Bullock (10:19)
Correct. mean, even think about, you know, there might be, especially like in the travel space, there’s something that could impact a flight and that will change somebody’s preferences. Maybe there’s, you know, even the weather, something that there’s no way historical data could have really helped in that particular case. So I just think that having people think through that is really important. And you’re exactly right. It doesn’t mean you want to get rid of all the historical data, but I think it’s just understanding that you really…
need to marry those two together to get a full picture of your buyer.
Greg Kihlstrom (10:49)
And so, ⁓ Tillium has had some, some pretty impressive results with the, your conversions API. I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about that. Some numbers, you know, 25 % boost and ROAS and some other things. Could you maybe talk about, you know, what, what is it and, and how it can deliver such a significant returns?
Heidi Bullock (11:10)
Yeah, well, it’s a magical technology that I can’t, no, just kidding. It’s a server side method. So instead of a client side method to send conversion and event data to your app platform. And it does that without depending on third party cookies. And so you get a lot better matching and the signals obviously are clear. And what’s important about that is without that type of technology, you as a marketer have
it’s almost like you’re flying blind. You don’t have the understanding of exactly what has happened in a cycle and all the key steps, which you want to understand. You actually can then end up also spending way too much on ads. And with Cappy, can see, oh, this was my conversion path. You can then kind of shift dollars and optimize for that. So you’re not wasting money on ad platforms. we see basically
every single company that implements this. And there are multiple CAPIs that people can put in place. Just the savings and the benefits are, and you said, know, 25 % improvement on ROAS. That’s one stat. We see some that are a lot more significant. And even some companies that I would say are very dialed in still will see improvements. And it’s a little bit dependent on the ad platform. But one of the things that we talk about, and this is, you know, really just us trying to be helpful to our customers is like,
This is the first and foremost thing you should do. If you’re, mean, and with your listeners too, if there’s one thing you want to do for the rest of the year and you are an organization that spends money on Google, Meta, LinkedIn, this is by far ⁓ a key thing to do because you’ll just, you’ll have such a better sense of what’s working. And then you can obviously also for me report back on that. So it’s not just like, we’re spending these ad dollars. It’s a little bit black box. It’s like, you could say, no, like,
our spend was much better here and for these segments. So it’s a really critical thing for people to look at.
Greg Kihlstrom (13:09)
Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, a lot of the focus and rightfully so of investing in technology is from, the marketing team or the the teams using the products and what they need to do their jobs most effectively. But I wonder, you know, from that end consumer, you the end customers perspective, you know, what are they looking for in the technology that brands they support utilize? And, you know, what gets lost here and sort of the internal focus on
You know, let me and my team do our jobs better. You know, what are consumers really looking for that might be missed?
Heidi Bullock (13:45)
Yeah, for me, think, and if the question is, you know, if somebody is purchasing technology, what do they look for in a vendor? Like, what do they feel is missing? I can tell you my personal, just what I see over and over. I personally buy a lot of technology as well. And so sometimes when I’m speaking to somebody and it’s like, anything’s possible. And I think what I see from a lot of companies, they’re marketers or technologists, they’re very smart.
they’re very, very busy and they’re juggling a lot was we talked about more than ever. And I think my take is that folks want to work with a vendor who like say you’re working with me and I said, Greg, this is the first thing that you should do if you implement this technology. It’s almost like they can be a trusted advisor, provide experience because again, like I know for myself, like we work with so many different large enterprises. It’s a shame if I can’t help other companies and share some of that knowledge.
Obviously, I never list the name of the companies, but I can say like, hey, we get started. Wow, it looks like you’re spending so much here on these key ad platforms. Let’s put some CAPIs in place. Step one, right? Like somebody that can provide that insight versus like, it’s all possible, which is great. And I think a lot of vendors, they want to be able to showcase their platforms. All the things are amazing, but at the end of the day, people need clear steps. It’s like,
You don’t want to say, you know, what do you want to eat for lunch today? I don’t know. It doesn’t matter. It’s like we want to both agree that we’re going to go get tacos and they’re going to be great.
Greg Kihlstrom (15:13)
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think just it’s in everyone’s. I mean, it’s even in the end consumers best interest, but it’s in everyone’s best interest in that scenario that they start somewhere and they start somewhere focused. And, you know, everything needs to prove its value over time. And, you know, and, you know, getting internal adoption. A lot of this is kind of back to our earlier point.
Even though it’s software purchasing, it’s also change management from the people side. So like having a strong use case that you start with, even if it’s only a fraction of what the platform can do, because, you know, most a lot of platforms can do a lot of things. you know, starting with that strong use case can be, you know, be a really powerful way to start.
Heidi Bullock (15:57)
I agree, and it really helps build everyone’s, know, I feel like the company then has trust in the vendor, which is important, and it’s helping them get that internal win. So it’s like, look, this investment made sense, and now we can start to climb the mountain and look at other use cases. But I just think being that trusted advisor and helping people narrow in so they can have success. Because again, those individuals are reporting up to executives and have to show for this investment.
look, here’s the return, we’re making those business changes and driving that impact. So I think helping people in that process, because a lot of folks, like this may not be something that they do all the time. So it’s our job to help there.
Greg Kihlstrom (16:40)
Yeah, absolutely. speaking of, you know, trust, maybe a different kind of trust, but, you know, data privacy, you touched on this briefly earlier, but I want to get back to that as well, because this is another one of those areas where we all kind of know that it needs to be addressed. Some some are more expert in consumer data privacy and depending on the industry and all that stuff as well. But, you know, everyone knows that it’s needed. But.
A lot of people at brands, you know, even if they’re working in the healthcare or financial services or whatever, they may not know the nitty gritty stuff that they really need to understand. You know, how, how do brands balance this need for personalized advertising? You know, we know that, we know that it works. We know that it’s powerful, but you know, while still balancing that with consumer data, privacy concerns and regulations, regardless of what they are.
Heidi Bullock (17:31)
Right. mean, I’d say it’s really important and it’s a big challenge. And I feel that, you know, we in the United States, it’s been a little bit slower than say like, you know, Germany, Canada, know, we, at Chile, I mean, we are a large global organization. So I feel in a way fortunate that this was something that we really prioritized early on. But I think one of the biggest things that people can do is, again, it goes back to having a first party data strategy where, you know, people
you’re making it easy and a straightforward path for them to provide the right information versus purchasing it, that data will be better. I feel like you can do a lot better marketing. But the key, again, this is probably the number one reason for me, for companies looking at technology, it’s making sure that you can collect ⁓ customer data in real time. And then again, making sure that that data really can be.
in real time as well. What I mean by that is you can think about consent status. So say, Greg, you opt into something you buy, a cool pair of shorts, you’re going on vacation, and you’re like, great, I’m happy to get mobile messages from this company. But then halfway through your trip, you’re like, you know, I’m drinking Margaritas on the beach. I don’t really want to get messages from that brand. And then you say, I want to change that. You need a technology that can update that consent status in real time.
across all the key channels that you’re choosing to opt out of. And that’s to me, I think that’s one of the most critical reasons for people to look at CDPs because again, the reality is companies can get fined a lot of money. We see it every morning I get this one email that’s just around like privacy and it’s like, here’s the latest fine from this company. And so it’s just one of those things people have to really take seriously. And then when people have opted in,
and really you can start to build that trust. I think that’s when it makes sense to use data in the way that they’ve given you permission for personalized experiences. But it’s like dating, it’s a dance and companies have to respect that because I think the tolerance around it is just really, it’s going down. People just, they really expect those preferences to be upheld and not just when they’re first given but throughout that entire journey.
Greg Kihlstrom (19:48)
Yeah, and I think it’s one of those things. mean, I know there was there was a lot of press around some of the stuff when the third party cookie, you know, the cookie apocalypse, you know, happened and then it was delayed and that was delayed. But but I mean, what you’re saying, you know, that’s a that’s a timeline and that’ll happen when it happens or not. Or, you know, I know it’s requirements have shifted a little over the years, but this is still very real. you know, a first party.
I mean, there’s there’s two components. mean, one is the data privacy and regulations part of it. To your point, companies are getting fined. Consumers are, you know, potentially could lose trust based on that. Plus, I mean, first party data just works too, right?
Heidi Bullock (20:31)
Yeah, it’s just better. mean, that’s kind of my message to people. It’s like aside from the, know, it’s a better practice, but it’s like, you can be a better marketer. Imagine that it’s like, it’s like what the marketing you can do is actually higher quality. So for me, I feel like it’s a, it’s a win-win. And I recognize there’s companies that are like, no, we, you know, we don’t have the time or there’s always a reason, but I just think it’s, it’s, that’s where the world’s going. And, and, and it’s important to think through that strategy and having one as a company.
Greg Kihlstrom (21:01)
Yeah. So as we wrap up here, a couple last questions for you here. But we’ve been talking about change and adapting to change and this whole time. What would your advice be to leaders who there’s some key platform and people decisions coming up for them that are going to impact them and their teams? What would your advice be to them to balance change with maintaining performance and really just kind of keep an eye for the future?
Heidi Bullock (21:29)
Right. mean, I think what I would say is that, and we talked about this little in the beginning, it’s easy to put off hard things, but the best thing folks can do is just jump in and I think kind of go through what we just talked about, make sure it’s clear, just write down and be clear with your kind of key data team, like whatever that summer of excellence team is, here’s what our goals are. Maybe for this coming year, we really want to improve retention in a key segment. We want to grow this other one.
want to drive some business in Latin America, whatever that is, be clear on those goals, then think through the people and really what are the best use cases for us to then start to get going? And then to me, then it’s really a technology decision. But I think by putting that off, what I see, unfortunately, is those companies just fall further behind because the companies that are acting quick and just doing it, they’re quite successful.
they are growing and they have a lot of good business results to talk about. So I think it doesn’t have to be scary. And another thing I would say is just find another organization maybe that is similar to you and talk to some of those leaders, see what they’ve done and where they’ve maybe failed so you can learn from that. That’s something that I always personally try to do. It’s like, here’s another leader, similar situation, company size. People are very willing to help you and tell you what to avoid, I think.
Greg Kihlstrom (22:54)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m always surprised that I mean, I guess I talk to people quite quite a few times a day, but I outside of the podcast, I’m always I’m always surprised at how forthcoming, you know, so many people are and just willing to learn. mean, I again, I feel lucky I get to learn from every conversation I have for the show, but also just every conversation that I have. I I learned something. So, yeah.
Heidi Bullock (23:16)
Yeah, people like to help, they do. Yeah.
Greg Kihlstrom (23:18)
Absolutely. Well, Heidi, thanks so much for coming back on the show. Always, always great to talk with you. One last question for you. What do you do to stay agile in your role and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
Heidi Bullock (23:30)
Yeah, so I make it a personal goal of mine, as you highlighted, just to always stay as current as possible. think my number one piece of advice for people is listen to podcasts. It’s just the freshest, most current information. And then I always set aside a part of my week and then budget to test and look at new things. And some of them are gonna work and some are not, but you have to be somebody that’s always trying because…
I’ve just been delighted at some new technologies that I’ve tried or just even new approaches to things. But you have to set aside some money and time to do it. And no one is gonna open it up for you, have to do it yourself.
