In this episode
Jody Kaminsky, Chief Marketing Officer at ICIMS, led a full rebrand of an established enterprise recruiting and hiring platform around AI, in a category where being wrong about AI can cost someone a job. In this episode, Greg Kihlström talks with Kaminsky about the business signals that told her it was time to change the brand, how the new message was built from market research rather than executive taste, how roughly 500 candidate taglines were narrowed to one through focus groups, surveys, and hundreds of buyer interviews, and how she measures brand investment, including what AI search and LLMs now say about the company. The through-line: a brand claim only holds if it matches the experience customers actually have, and that experience is what LLMs are drawing on when buyers research vendors before they ever reach your site.
Key takeaways
- A brand needs updating when it stops reflecting what you do. Kaminsky’s triggers: the brand no longer matches the reality of what you deliver, the market has changed dramatically, or a new technology like AI has become a core component of the product. The skill is updating without losing the positive equity already built.
- Authenticity is the measure of whether a rebrand worked. If the brand message doesn’t match the experience customers actually have, it gets called out instantly and in real time on social media, and trust with current customers and future buyers goes with it.
- AI in hiring means supplementing humans, not making hiring decisions. Interview scheduling is her example: dozens of steps in the hiring process that no recruiter or hiring manager wants to spend hours on. Compliance with a growing body of AI-in-hiring regulation is the baseline, not the pitch.
- AI washing adds to buyer confusion. Workflow automation, RPA, and machine learning that have existed for years are being relabeled as generative AI, and buyers are learning to tell the difference between AI that helps and AI that is just annoying.
- The rebrand started with market research, not a logo. Customers and prospects were asked what they believed was true about iCIMS, what they liked and didn’t, how they saw it against competitors, and what their ideal provider would look like. The overlap between that data and where the company was actually going became the message.
- About 500 taglines were cut to 10–12, then three, then one. Buyers never saw the full list. The shortlist went through focus groups, online surveys, and interviews with hundreds of customers and buyers, asking whether each option rang true, was relevant, and was differentiated. Employees voted, industry analysts weighed in, and the whole process took nine months to a year.
- “Powering Exceptional Hiring” is as much a filter as a promise. iCIMS positions itself for companies where hiring is critical to business outcomes, and says plainly that if hiring isn’t that important to a business, it is probably not the right solution.
- Brand can be measured, and Kaminsky lists how. Online brand sentiment tools, brand sentiment in AI and LLM search, site traffic, and a blind brand-awareness survey run twice a year, all lined up against brand investment dollars.
- LLMs draw on Reddit and third-party content, not your website. What other people say about you is becoming more important than what you say about yourself, which is why the real customer experience now determines whether AI search mentions you and what it says.
Chapters
- 01:17 — Why rebuild a brand around AI in a category where mistakes cost jobs
- 02:47 — Jody Kaminsky’s background: 25+ years in B2B SaaS and HR tech
- 03:28 — The business drivers that signal it’s time for a brand to evolve
- 05:50 — Making the AI story true before making it positive
- 10:23 — The right tool for the job, and the problem with AI washing
- 12:28 — A data-oriented rebrand: market research before any creative
- 15:39 — 500 taglines to 10–12 to three: how the shortlist was validated
- 19:09 — The tagline, and why it says who ICIMS is not for
- 19:38 — Measuring brand: sentiment, LLM search, traffic, blind surveys
- 22:35 — B2B buyers are moving to AI search; what LLMs actually draw on
- 26:15 — One year out: AI regulation, consolidation, and central AI platforms
- 27:53 — How Kaminsky stays agile
When does an established brand actually need a rebrand?
Kaminsky’s view is that any brand around for more than a decade will need to evolve, and she points to 3M, American Express, and Amazon as companies whose brands moved far from where they started. The CMO’s job is recognizing the moment: when the brand no longer reflects what the company does for customers, when the market has shifted dramatically, or when a new technology like AI has become central to what’s delivered. The hard part is doing that without throwing away the positive equity the brand already holds.
Why “true” comes before “positive” in an AI brand story
Asked how to balance the upside of AI in hiring against the real trepidation around it, Kaminsky started with authenticity. A brand message that doesn’t match the customer’s actual experience gets called out in real time on social media. From there, the work is demystifying where AI belongs in hiring. Interview scheduling is her example: hours of back-and-forth that no recruiter wants, and a place where automation gives people time back for building candidate relationships and talent strategy. ICIMS’s position is that AI supplements what humans do in the process rather than making hiring decisions for them, and that compliance with the growing body of AI-in-hiring regulation comes first.
How ICIMS validated the new brand with data
Kaminsky has seen rebrands run on a single executive’s taste in logos, and she chose the opposite approach. The process began with market research among customers and prospective customers: what they believed was true about ICIMS today, what they liked and didn’t, how they compared it to competitors, and what they wanted from an ideal recruiting and hiring provider. That data was lined up against the company’s vision of what is and will be true about it, and the overlap became the new message. The team then generated around 500 potential taglines and dozens of logos and vision statements, narrowed them to 10–12, and took those back to the market through focus groups, online surveys, and interviews with hundreds of customers and buyers. Several rounds brought it to three front runners; employees voted, analysts and experts weighed in, and the final logo, tagline, and go-forward message came out of that.
What “Powering Exceptional Hiring” is meant to say
The tagline is built for companies where hiring is a differentiator and critical to business outcomes. Kaminsky is direct that it is also meant to exclude: if hiring isn’t a big factor in a business’s ability to deliver, ICIMS is probably not the fit. In her words, it is as much about who the company is not for as who it is for.
How to measure a brand investment
Kaminsky challenges anyone who thinks brand is less data-driven than demand gen to sit through the process she just ran. She acknowledges the attribution gap: an event that produces 10 customers is easy to tie to revenue, while brand investment ripples out more slowly. Her measurement set is overall brand perception from sentiment tools (is it plateauing, rising, or falling, and how does that track brand activity), brand sentiment in AI and LLM search, site traffic trends, and a twice-yearly blind brand-awareness survey that asks buyers who they’ve heard of in the category and what they think of them. Each is lined up against brand spend.
What AI search changes about controlling your brand
Buyers who once relied on paid and Google search are now researching options in Claude, ChatGPT, or Perplexity before they ever contact a vendor. Kaminsky frames this as the next step in a decades-long loss of control: in the 1950s advertising let a brand control its message; today the market, users, and buyers control it. AI search extends that, because LLMs draw on Reddit discussions and third-party content rather than copying from your website. What other people say about you now outweighs what you say about yourself, and the real customer experience is what determines whether an LLM mentions you and what it says.
FAQ
What triggered the ICIMS rebrand? Kaminsky describes three signals that a brand needs to evolve: it no longer reflects what the company actually does for customers, the market has changed dramatically, or a new technology like AI has become a core part of what’s delivered. For ICIMS, AI becoming central to the product was the trigger.
How did ICIMS test its new brand message before launch? The team generated around 500 potential taglines plus dozens of logos and vision statements, narrowed them to 10–12, and validated those through focus groups, online surveys, and interviews with hundreds of customers and buyers, asking whether each option was true, relevant, and differentiated. Several rounds produced three finalists, employees voted, and industry analysts gave input. The full process took nine months to a year.
What is the iCIMS tagline and what does it mean? “Powering Exceptional Hiring.” It positions iCIMS for companies where hiring is critical to business outcomes, and Kaminsky says it is as much about who the platform is not for as who it is for.
How does ICIMS talk about AI in hiring without scaring buyers? By being specific: AI supplements what recruiters and hiring managers do, in places like interview scheduling, rather than making hiring decisions. Compliance with AI-in-hiring regulation is the baseline, and the brand message focuses on demystifying where automation actually helps.
How can brand marketing be measured? Kaminsky’s set: online brand sentiment tools, brand sentiment in AI and LLM search, site traffic, and a blind brand-awareness survey run twice a year, all compared against brand investment over time.
Why does the customer experience matter for AI search visibility? LLMs draw on Reddit discussions and third-party content rather than a company’s own website, so what others say about a brand determines whether AI search mentions it and how. Kaminsky’s conclusion is that the real customer experience is now a brand marketing input.
About Jody Kaminsky
Jody Kaminsky is the Chief Marketing Officer at ICIMS, an enterprise AI talent acquisition platform, and former CMO of UKG who led the company through the Ultimate Software/Kronos merger. With 30+ years of experience as a CMO and marketing board advisor guiding enterprise technology companies through large-scale transformations, Jody’s experience lies in leading brand evolution, shaping compelling brand narratives, aligning marketing with business strategy, and building credibility in a crowded AI market. Today, she applies that experience at ICIMS, which powers responsible AI hiring for more than 4,000 organizations worldwide, including The Container Store, Urban Outfitters, PetSmart, Canon, Heineken, and The Cheesecake Factory, giving her perspective shaped by some of the world’s most recognized brands.
Jody Kaminsky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodykaminsky/
Resources
ICIMS: https://www.icims.com
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Transcript
[00:01:17] Greg Kihlström: Hi, I’m Greg Kihlström, host of the Agile Brand, and here’s a question for you. How do you rebuild a brand around AI in a category where being wrong about AI costs someone a job? Agility isn’t moving quickly on the latest technology, it’s being able to change what your company stands for repeatedly without your customers losing track of who you are. Today we’re getting into what it actually takes to lead an established enterprise brand through that kind of change, what triggers a brand transformation and how you keep it tethered to where the business is actually going, how to make AI claims credible in a market where every competitor is saying roughly the same thing, and how to prove a brand shift moved the business and what you accept you can’t prove.
[00:02:47] Greg Kihlström: To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome Jody Kaminsky, Chief Marketing Officer at iCIMS. Jody, welcome to the show.
[00:02:58] Jody Kaminsky: Thanks so much, Greg. I’m honored to be here.
[00:03:01] Greg Kihlström: Looking forward to diving in here. Before we do, though, why don’t you give a little background on yourself and your role at iCIMS?
[00:03:07] Jody Kaminsky: Sounds great. So I have been in marketing for 25-plus years. I’ve always been in B2B SaaS marketing, specifically in the HR technology space, and I currently work for a company called iCIMS that makes recruiting and hiring software for enterprise companies.
[00:03:28] Greg Kihlström: Great. So let’s dive in here. We’re going to talk about a few things, but I want to start with what I touched on in the intro, and it’s leading a brand through transformation. Certainly I talk with a lot of leaders, and there are lots of things going on, whether you’re a CMO that’s dealing with choosing what platforms to use, or you’re a CMO at a platform that is going through a transformation. I think the move to adopt AI is affecting a lot of this right now. You’ve recently led a brand transformation at iCIMS. Maybe we could just start with how did you start? What were the key business drivers that signaled that it was time for a change? And then how did you align that with a new brand vision?
[00:04:16] Jody Kaminsky: I think one of the wonderful things about being in marketing for long enough is that brands have to evolve. If you have the luxury of being a brand that has been around for more than a decade, your brand is going to need to evolve with the times. I mean, if you think about brands like 3M, or even American Express that started as a freight logistics company. Or even Amazon, if you’re old enough to remember the advent of Amazon like I do. They started out really as kind of an online bookseller, and they’ve evolved tremendously over the decades. Any brand that is around for long enough is going to need to evolve. So I think being the CMO is understanding when it is time for your brand to get updated. Maybe when your brand is no longer reflecting the realities of what you actually do for your customers, or the market has changed dramatically, or a brand-new technology like AI has become a core component of what you deliver, then you know it’s time for your brand to evolve. And I think the magic is in figuring out how to update your brand so that you don’t lose any positive equity that you have built up for your brand, but you also update your brand to reflect who you really are today and what you deliver to your customers today, and it’s kind of finding that balance.
[00:05:50] Greg Kihlström: Well, and I think another challenge is… The iCIMS brand is built, and the tool itself is built, around helping organizations hire smarter and put people first in the age of AI. Certainly there’s a lot of hesitancy sometimes about full-on AI adoption, and rightfully so. People are a little bit concerned about how their roles are going to change and things like that. So not without reason, but how do you balance the positives of some of these things with some of the trepidation and come out with a positive story that also is true? [laughs]
[00:06:38] Jody Kaminsky: Well, I’d like to focus on the second point you just made about being true first, because I think, to me anyway, the ultimate measure of whether a rebrand or a brand update or any brand message really is effective is whether or not it’s really authentic. Is it really a true representation of the experience your customers have with your brand? And I think in this day and age, if those things don’t match up, if your brand isn’t authentic to the experience that your customers actually have, your brand will just get called out instantly, in real time. And you see that happen all the time on social media with brands that make a misstep or do something that is not authentic to who they say they are. So I think the most important part is the authenticity and the truth and being an accurate reflection. But to the first half of your question on how you weave AI into your brand message, we’re in a really especially interesting time over the past couple weeks with more discussion in the spotlight around the pace of AI innovation and whether or not we need to intentionally slow down and put more guardrails into place. So it’s a great time to be asking that question and to be thinking about that question. But I think it’s also a little bit about demystifying the risks and use of AI in HR aspects like recruiting and hiring. I think when you think about the process to recruit and hire an employee for your business, there are tons of spots in the process that are ripe for automation, where a human being doesn’t actually want to be spending the time that they’re spending. Think about interview scheduling as a great example. You say AI and hiring and people instantly might feel like that’s really risky or scary because you don’t want AI making hiring decisions. But when you really understand the complexity of the hiring process, there are tons of places that are ripe for automation, like interview scheduling, where a recruiter or a hiring manager doesn’t want to be spending hours of time going back and forth with candidates on their availability and the hiring manager’s availability, and somebody gets sick and you have to swap it out. So there are so many, just dozens and dozens of fantastic use cases for AI to supplement what humans do in the hiring process, not to be making hiring decisions for them. And that’s really a key part of our brand message. The way that we use AI in our platform, first of all, is compliant with the plethora of regulations, and there are more and more regulations every single day that govern AI and hiring. So number one, we need to comply with those regulations, which of course we do. But I think number two, it’s just demystifying it a little bit and helping our customers understand where AI really can help them and can take things out of the process that humans do not want to be doing anyway, and give them more time to be building the relationships up with candidates proactively, understanding their hiring managers’ needs, building talent strategies for their business. And it’s just about striking the right balance with your brand message.
[00:10:23] Greg Kihlström: Well, and I think, to your point, it’s using the right tool for the job, right? I don’t want to have to talk with someone on the phone about scheduling any meeting. I use some calendar tools even for the show to make things as streamlined as possible, because I remember the days of sending 100 emails back and forth or phone calls of, “Hey, does this time work?” [laughs] “No, does this time work?” So to that end, I feel like customers and job applicants, whoever they are, when it just helps and when it solves a challenge, it could be AI, it could be a person. It’s just a good thing. I think when it’s obviously, hey, AI is being, I’ll just say, slapped on a problem that AI shouldn’t be used for, that’s where maybe it gets a bad rap. Because again, you’re talking about using the right tool for the right job.
[00:11:30] Jody Kaminsky: Such a great point. I think there’s that aspect of it where you’re slapping AI into every use case, even if it doesn’t make sense, and I think as consumers, we’re all starting to have those experiences where sometimes the AI addition is really, really helpful, and sometimes it’s just annoying. You don’t need it in that particular space. But I think then you also see a whole lot of AI washing, where people are calling things AI that really have been around for a long, long time and are just things like workflow automation that’s existed, or RPA that’s existed for many, many years, or machine learning. And they’re just labeling it as generative AI even when it really isn’t that, and that just adds, I think, to the confusion.
[00:12:28] Greg Kihlström: Exactly. So let’s talk a little bit more… I want to go back to your point about authenticity and talk a little bit more about taking the new brand to market. Talk us through the process of how you validated it to back that up.
[00:12:52] Jody Kaminsky: I love that question. We took a very data-oriented approach to our rebrand. I’ve been in marketing for many years, and I’ve done several rebrands throughout my career, and I’ve seen them done in a very siloed way where it’s maybe just a CMO or a CEO saying, “Oh, I like this logo. I want it to look like this.” And then I’ve seen it done in a very data-oriented way where you actually ask your customers and your buyers and your market for input, and that’s the direction we took with this rebrand for iCIMS. I think part of the reason we did that is because I am really a stickler for the authenticity aspect of your brand. I feel really strongly in any space, B2B, B2C, if your brand message is not authentic to the experience that your customers have, you’re instantly going to lose trust with your existing customers and your future buyers, and that’s not going to help your brand. So it was really important to me that where we landed be authentic to what our customer experience actually is. So the way that we started our brand update process was by doing market research with our customers and with prospective customers to understand what they think is true about our brand today, what they like about it, what they don’t like, what they think when they think of us versus some of our competitors out in the marketplace, and really what they would be looking for from their ideal provider of recruiting and hiring software. And we took that data, and we aligned that up against our vision and what is true about us and what will be true about us in our future, and we looked for where those overlap points were, and that became our new brand message. And that new brand message, if you’re not familiar with the recruiting and hiring software space, is really around powering exceptional hiring. So what we decided is that we are a software solution for companies that need to really be excellent at hiring, that need to excel at hiring, where hiring the right talent is a differentiator for them. So if you’re a business where hiring is not that important to you and it doesn’t make a big impact in your ability to deliver products and services, we’re probably not the right solution for you. We’re a very, very powerful, flexible recruiting and hiring platform, and we really are only a fit for companies where hiring is critical to their business outcomes, and so that was part of our rebrand and part of our new go-forward message.
[00:15:39] Greg Kihlström: I know we talked a little bit about validating and things, but how do you back that up? How did you decide what were good ways to make sure that it was authentic?
[00:17:32] Jody Kaminsky: So like I said, we were very data-oriented. So not only did we gather data upfront about perceptions of our brand today, then after we gathered all that data, we came up with something like 500 potential taglines and dozens and dozens of different logos and core vision statements, and then we narrowed those down. We didn’t make buyers read hundreds and hundreds of options, but we narrowed them down to a set of maybe 10 to 12 that we thought were strong and were authentic to us, and then we went back out to the market and we did focus groups, we did online surveys, and we did interviews with hundreds of customers and buyers to say, okay, here are some of the things that we’re thinking about for our new brand message. Tell us, does this ring true to you? Is this relevant to you? Is this differentiated? Does this just sound like what everybody else is saying? Are we just drinking our own Kool-Aid and we’re not really saying anything different than anybody else? And so we did several rounds of that until we got it knocked down to three front runners. And then we solicited input, both from internally here at our own company, because we wanted our employees to believe in our new brand, so we let them vote. And then we talked to some industry analysts and experts in our field, and really honed those three options down to what we landed on as our final new logo, new tagline, and new go-forward message.
[00:19:09] Greg Kihlström: Nice. Love it. And just for those listening, what is the tagline?
[00:19:14] Jody Kaminsky: The tagline is Powering Exceptional Hiring. So it’s really meant to convey if you need to be exceptional at hiring, if hiring is really critical to your business, we are the platform that powers that. If you’re in a business where maybe hiring isn’t as critical of an issue, then maybe we’re not a fit for you. So it’s just as much about who we’re not for as who we are for.
[00:19:38] Greg Kihlström: Love it. And so let’s talk a little bit… I’ve had a few conversations on this show about this idea that brand marketing is sometimes seen as less tangible, less measurable than demand gen. How did you think about measuring success? And when in the process did you start thinking about measuring success of this brand transformation?
[00:20:05] Jody Kaminsky: Well, I challenge anyone who thinks that brand marketing is less data-oriented than demand gen to sit in on the process that we went through to arrive where we landed, which was extremely data-oriented. And from start to finish, it took about nine months to a year, because at every stage in the process we went out to gather more data and to validate our assumptions and our decisions. But I think to your point, it’s just an ongoing challenge, I think, for all CMOs to be able to defend the investment in the brand, because the value of that is sometimes less direct than demand generation. If you go to an event and you get 10 new customers from that event, you can prove that event led to this much revenue, and there’s a really direct correlation, and it’s really easy. Whereas investing in your brand, it starts a ripple effect at the surface of the lake, and it takes a while for that impact to impact your results. But I think there are ways that you can measure it. So some of the ways that we measure it, well, a few different ways. Some of the ways that you can measure it are overall perception of your brand online. There are lots of tools out there that can measure brand sentiment for you. So number one is overall perception of your brand. Is it plateauing? Is it going up? Is it going down? And how does that correlate to your brand marketing? Another way that you can do it, especially today, is by understanding the sentiment of your brand in AI search and LLM search. What do the AI and LLMs out there think about your brand and say about your brand? Other ways that you can measure it are traffic to your site. Is traffic to your site going up, going down? And then we also do a twice annual brand awareness survey. We do it blind so that buyers don’t know what brand is asking, so that way we think the results are more authentic. But twice a year we go out and we ask buyers, “Who have you heard of in our space, and what is your perception of that brand?” And then you can line up those results to your brand investment dollars and your brand marketing.
[00:22:35] Greg Kihlström: Absolutely. Well, and I want to talk about… We’ve talked about AI a few different ways so far. We’ve talked about adopting AI features, and hiring and AI and things like that. But another part of this is the buying process. And certainly the B2C buying process is changing as well, but the B2B buying process, I’ve definitely heard some recent stats on just how much it’s changing.
[00:23:07] Jody Kaminsky: I mean, I think everybody in marketing is in the same boat where we’re in this really big transformation where paid search, or things like Google search, were a huge vehicle where buyers would get connected up with vendors or providers of whatever products they were looking for. And now you’re really starting to see this shift where people are going to AI search or their favorite LLM, Claude or ChatGPT or whatever, Perplexity, and they’re doing a lot more research on their options and the products out there before they ever even come to you. So there’s a lot of talk about the dark funnel and zero click, and I think we’re all seeing that. I mean, paid search used to be a really, really reliable source for high-quality leads and clicks, and it still is. But definitely our buyers, just like every human out there, are starting to shift to AI search. And so I think, going back to the point of authenticity, we’ve been on this journey where in the 1950s you had a lot more control over your brand perception, because the main way that people engaged with your brand was through things like advertising, where you control the message. We’ve been on this journey for many, many years, decades even, where you no longer control your brand message. The market, your users, your buyers control the brand message. And in a way, I think AI search is just the next evolution of that, where what other people say about you is becoming more important than what you say about yourself, and that’s really what’s influencing whether AI searches and LLMs mention you or not, and if they do mention you, what they say about you. So it really matters what your real customer experience is, because that is the source that a lot of LLMs are drawing on. They’re drawing on Reddit discussions and all kinds of third-party content. They’re not going to your website and copying and pasting from your website. And so all CMOs, all brand marketers need to really be thinking about what is the real customer experience out there like, because that is what’s going to inform the content that people see when they search on AI.
[00:26:15] Greg Kihlström: Absolutely. Well, Jody, thanks so much for joining today. I’ve got two last questions for you as we wrap up here. The first one, if we were having this interview one year from today, what is one thing that we would definitely be talking about?
[00:26:30] Jody Kaminsky: If we were having this interview one year from today, what is one thing… Boy, well, I wish I had a crystal ball to give you an accurate answer on that question. I think a couple of things. I think a lot more is going to shake out over the next year in terms of AI regulations and AI legislation, so I think the conversation will be a little bit different about how brands incorporate AI into their messaging. Is compliance going to be a more important component of it? And I think there’s going to be a lot more consolidation. There are just dozens and dozens of different AI providers and AI platforms out there. There’s going to be a lot more consolidation. I think there’s going to be a lot more clarity on whether every software provider is building and delivering their own AI tools, or are people consolidating onto central AI platforms and you’re just plugging into those platforms? So I think, maybe not all in the next year, it’s probably going to take several years to get through this transformation, but I think we’ll have more clarity on AI regulations and guardrails and how important that will be to the conversation.
[00:27:53] Greg Kihlström: And last question for you, what do you do to stay agile in your role, and how do you find a way to do it consistently?
[00:28:01] Jody Kaminsky: Well, I listen to the Agile Brand podcast.
[00:28:04] Greg Kihlström: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:28:05] Jody Kaminsky: That’s a great way to do it. I mean, I think just being intentional about making time in your day to pick your head up and listen to what’s going on outside your own organization. It’s so easy as a CMO to be so insular and just stay focused on your own little world and your own little space, so I try to make sure that I spend time every week to pick my head up and listen to podcasts, read, talk to other CMOs, talk to folks like you that hear all about what’s going on in the world of marketing, and I just try to make sure I spend a few hours a week doing that.
[00:28:43] Greg Kihlström: Love that. Well, again, I’d like to thank Jody Kaminsky, Chief Marketing Officer at iCIMS, for joining the show. You can learn more about Jody and iCIMS by following the links in the show notes.
