Author: Greg Kihlström

Read More The Agile Brand Blog – Greg Kihlström Customer Experience & Digital Transformation

The following was transcribed from a recent interview on The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström podcast. 

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Today we’re going to talk about setting boundaries and expectations during the sales cycle to prevent poor performance or disappoint down the line. To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome Craig Colby, President of OneStream Software.

[Greg Kihlstrom] So why don’t you start by giving a little background on both yourself, as well as your role at OneStream Software?

[Craig Colby] I’m the President, and one of the founders of OneStream. And it’s always important to say there’d be no OneStream if there wasn’t a company called UpStream. So I was a founder and I ran that company for a while. It was actually acquired by a legacy vendor back in 2005. But we learned a lot from that company. And, you know, OneStream is really dedicated to solving the problem for financial consolidation reporting, planning, for some of the largest, most sophisticated organizations in the world. And I run all things that are both go-to-market and customer-success-driven, so sales, marketing, alliances but also services areas of One Stream to ensure the success of the client.

We’re here to talk about managing customer expectations during the sales process so it optimizes outcomes for everyone Involved. Can you first, maybe, describe this challenge? And what are some of the potential outcomes when the customer is promised something unrealistic during the sales process?

Well, one of the reasons that I, sort of, own it all, Greg, at OneStream is to have that sort of single voice. And my experience tells me that setting expectations improperly is a recipe for disaster. And it can bring so many more problems than it solves. You’re asking for pain. You’re asking for a conversation with the executive sponsor, and that’s something you never want to have, right? You never want to have that conversation with the customer where things have gone off the rails. And typically the number one reason that I see where things go off the rails is when someone has an expectation that was unrealistic on the project. It was not set correctly on the up front. And what that means is you’re going to have bumps and you’re going to have an unhappy customer. Ultimately, customers talk, right? People talk, and they move from, you know, they might be one of your customers; they might be going to one of your prospects. 

So, to me, it’s a recipe for not having long-term success. And, you know, I like to break it up into short term and long term. And if you’re not playing the long game, you’re in trouble. You’re gonna have a lot of bumps, and ultimately it’s gonna come back and haunt you. That’s what we all want to avoid, right?

Yeah, absolutely, and I’ve certainly lived through this. You know, I think sometimes it’s not always something nefarious even. Sometimes it’s just not jumping in, and the salesperson saying “No, that’s not correct.” You know, so it’s sort of a mission sometimes or, you know, it’s not even necessarily an intentional thing. But, you know, this seems like a pretty obvious thing to avoid overall, but why do companies continue to do this and allow it and maybe even not train for it?

Yeah, so you said something really important right there, and that’s “trained for it.” It starts with the culture. So you have to train for it, right? And if you’re not starting there; if the very first thing that the people who represent your company, your sales team, your account managers, your customer success team, if the very first thing they hear isn’t that, “Hey, your goal is to set expectations properly, you have a problem right there, right? It has to be part of the culture. It can’t be an afterthought. It has to be from day one, “Hey, this is how we’re going to represent our organization.” 

When we bring in new people to that organization, we always say they have to take a shower from their previous vendors. We call it – insert legacy vendor name here – you need to take your legacy vendor shower before you come to training. And forget all the things that you heard before. Because many of these organizations, they have the marketing name. So the representatives, kind of, will do anything for the sale, because the business is going to survive, right? Because they’re already so large; they’re already at such a large scale that they don’t always play that long game. They’re in it for the short game, for the quick hit. And that account might be taken away from them next year, right? So it starts from a basis of trust and getting everyone to buy in that it’s in your best interest as a rep to set expectations properly so that you can be more successful with your next prospect and the other rep sitting right next to you can be more successful as well, and they can build off your success and you can build off their success with the customer. And it really starts from day one. It starts with the training; it starts with the culture. You know, it is a top-down type of mentality that has to be driven into the customer success and the account management teams.

Yeah, and I want to dive a little bit more into the culture aspect in a minute, but first I want to kind of flip it and talk about it from the customer standpoint. And customers don’t always know what they don’t know. But what are some red flags that a customer should look out for from a company whose sales team might be over-promising and may potentially under-deliver?

It’s a phenomenal question. And it’s something we challenge customers all the time on. And, really, it comes down to every company can give you three references. I don’t know if they took them golfing or they had a nice dinner or, you know, I don’t know what it is. Every company has three. It’s like the magic number. They’ve got their go-to three people that will talk fondly at that company. This is what we recommend. Ask for five. Throw those out, and ask for five more. Better yet, why can’t I talk to any of your customers? So we actually give a name and a number for every single customer we have. That’s what we do at OneStream. Why? Well, we know that’s to our advantage. I wouldn’t do it if it wasn’t to my advantage. We have had customers; I have had prospects that have called over 100 of our customers. And what they say, overwhelmingly, is “Well, you’re not perfect, but, man, do your customers love you.”

There’s no such thing as perfect. And that’s, sort of, the expectation setting, right, especially when you’re selling a software or a service. Have you ever heard of a perfect software or a perfect project? Is there such a thing? There really isn’t. And so trying to set that expectation is not realistic. The expectation is there will be a couple bumps and we’re going to work through them as partners and get to the other side, and they’re all OK. 

So the biggest red flag, and we hear this all the time, “Well, yeah, we’re still waiting on your competitors’ references; we’ve been waiting for weeks.” Well, take the first batch of them; throw them away. You know, ask for five or 10 more. They say they have thousands of customers, right? They just told you there’s a thousand. Why can’t they get 10? Why is 20 hard? Well, we give you a thousand-plus. And that’s, sort of, our testament, and we’re not perfect. And all of those customers would like something to be improved in the software, of course. Something can always be a little bit easier to do. Of course it can. That’s reasonable. But we do what we say and we say what we do. We under-promise; we over-deliver, and we deliver success. And that’s what it comes down to. But that’s the first red flag. If you can, you know, really dive into the references and find out who’s doing what you’re looking to do, and doing it successfully, and glows about it, you’re gonna get a lot of confidence in your purchase.

One more thing along the lines of from the customer angle, sales people, in my experience, and I’ve done plenty of selling in my life and still do many times, but generally you hate to say no to a customer, right? And it’s tough because you’re afraid somebody may say yes to the same request. But in your experience, how can telling a customer no still lead to a positive outcome for everybody, customer and all?

Yeah, so it’s the most important word to say when you need to say it. Because that’s your credibility. How can you be a trusted advisor to the organization, and you are a sales rep and they know you’re a sales rep, by the way, right? They know your job is to sell the business. But I promise you, your job is so much easier if they can switch their mentality to the fact that you’re a trusted advisor and you’re there in their best interest.

And very often, and I say this all the time to my teams, very often, surprisingly enough, customers don’t really know what they want. They think they know, but they don’t, because they haven’t done it yet. They don’t really know what they’re asking for. And so you have to educate. You have to be a teacher as much as anything. You have to be an educator on “Hey, I hear ya. No, and why is it no. And, by the way, what business outcome are you really looking for? And is there another way, or a better way, to solve for that?”

Typically there is, and typically your solution will probably do it. But, to me, no is really the first level of credibility that you can gain. And we’ve had that feedback from customers over the years. “Hey, you were the only ones that said no. You were the only ones that pushed back and challenged us on this and made us think about it in a different way.” And it’s an opportunity for you to gain credibility with that customer. It’s a powerful word, but it needs to be backed up by, you know, why – no, and why – not just no. And what can we be thinking about differently? Do you agree with that? 

I’m definitely a fan of the consultative approach. And even if it turns out that it’s not the right fit, I mean, wouldn’t you rather have a happy customer that comes back another time when it is the right fit, versus someone that’s unhappy from the start? I mean, maybe this is a good segue to going back to the culture?

A hundred percent. They’re gonna go away anyway, right? If they’re unhappy, they’re not going to be your customer anyway. And they might tell four other people that they were unhappy and cost you four other customers. It’s not worth it.

Going back to that culture piece that you were touching on earlier, what can leaders do? I mean, I’d be hard pressed to find a sales organization that doesn’t have quotas of some sort and expectations and everything like that. So getting rid of those is not necessarily the answer, but what do leaders do to discourage this behavior overall?

Yeah, so it comes back to accountability. So if a leader starts to see a behavior in a rep that is not working well for the business, right? So if a rep – I’ll call it rogue – if they’re rogue, and they’re not really applying the culture of the company, which is the long game, they might get a couple sales, but they’re not doing the company any good service, right? Because those sales are going to go away. And that stuff really can be corrected very quickly. And I call it bad behavior, right? When you see bad behavior, It either needs to change immediately, or that individual is not capable of not having bad behavior and they need to move on to another organization where they’re a better fit. But you said something earlier. You know, if they’re not a good fit, I mean, it’s a problem from day one. It’s a stress on the organization. It’s going to be a stress on the support partner, right? It’s gonna be a stress on you personally. Who wants to sell something to someone and have them mad at them? You just don’t. 

So culture is everything. And having a sales culture where people are really teammates and you try to develop a team atmosphere, which means what you do affects someone else. The way you have conducted yourself has an effect on your counterpart out there. If you sell a really good piece of business, you’ve set expectations perfectly, and you deliver a success at one of the largest companies in the world, and they scream to the rooftops about it, guess what? That has a positive effect on the guy next to you. And if they do the same thing, again, for you, that has a positive effect on you. So It’s about playing for the team. It’s about acting as a team, as a sales team, which means that you’re all working towards a common goal, which is that customer’s success, setting expectations properly, under-promise, over-deliver, and set the customer up for a positive experience with your organization. That’s what you can do. 

But it does start with the top. It starts with the leadership. Is the leadership sales at all cost? Hey, do you have to make the quarter? What happens if you don’t? You know, it’s such a tough message, but we’ll all live. We’ll all live. But we won’t live if we make our quarter and we just sold three bad customers that we shouldn’t have sold. Then we won’t live. We won’t see another day. It will come back and haunt us a year, two, three years down the road. It will come back and get ya.

Along those lines, then, are there alternative metrics then? There’s quotas and there’s sales figures, by whatever time increment you measure them by. But are there other metrics that can be used, like customer lifetime, or satisfaction, or things like that, that can be part of the sales team’s measurements of success? In other words, instead of just making sales, since, again, there tends to be some conflict of interest there, right?

There absolutely are. So one of the measures we use is how quick to referenceability was your customer? How quick to referenceability are they? And what did it take to get them there? There are some customers who say, “Hey, we can’t be on your list until we’re live.” And that’s fair, right? That’s a fair ask. Well, if you’re a rep and the customer went live; they’re a live customer; they’re check-box; they automatically go on the list, if they for some reason asked not to be on that list, that’s a red flag, right? So that’s one of the ones that we use, is that time to referenceability, that time to, based on what they said in the contract, they’ll go on your list at live. If they don’t, that’s a problem. Then there’s work to be done there. We’ve either made a bad sale or we had some bumps, and that’s OK, and we just needed to get through ‘em. Most of the stuff are things you can get through. You know, you have to be accountable towards that customer’s success. 

So we actually go through that in what we call our QBRs, where we’re doing our quarterly business rules. They come up with their customers and they say, “Yeah, you know, these are all my customers and here’s their status.” So that is a standard part of the QBR, is the customer status. And they better be referenceable, and if they’re not, if I’m in the QBR, there’s a conversation that’s going to be had, of why; what happened. And, you know, they need to be held accountable to that.

I want to circle back to that whole concept of saying no. And how would you coach a sales leader to make it OK, or give some alternatives to using the word no, or make it more palatable? And what advice would you give to someone that needs to coach a team on obviously wanting to make a sale, but, to your point earlier, sometimes a sale isn’t even a good idea for anyone involved? So, you know, what advice would you have to somebody that’s coaching, in that regard?

Yeah, so I have some very specific examples. We’ve actually sold 30 customers that originally bought another solution, where we lost the deal up front and they came back to us. So that’s how I actually coach them. I say, “Listen, they’re your customer. If you presented it properly; if we really have the right solution for them, they’re your customer. They might not be your customer this year, but maybe next year. Because they’re not going to be successful with their current project. They’re not. We know it. We know what they’re asking for. What they’ve deemed to be a requirement is not going to be achievable in the way they think it will be. And so they’re going to be dissatisfied. And building that credibility of saying no, explaining why, and very softly saying, “Listen, we’re going to keep in touch” – like, “We aren’t going to do that, but we’re going to keep in touch because we think you’re going to learn that you actually might suffer more than you benefit. And we wish you the best, but we’re here. And we’re here to guide you when you come back.”

And so, again, “no” is credibility. “No” is your trusted advisor status. And very often, “no” is the reason they will come back to you and say, “You know, you guys were the only ones that said no; you explained why, and you were right. We should have been thinking differently about this.” And that’s all you can do. And it comes down to the long game or the short game. It really does. Are you playing the long game, or are you playing the short game?

About the Guest

Craig Colby is President of OneStream Software.

As one of the original founders of OneStream Software, we have created a culture that focuses on customer and employee success. Every OneStream customer is a reference and employees are empowered and motivated to ensure customer success at every turn. Prior to OneStream, as one of the original founders of UpStream Software, this culture of customer and employee success was well established. When Hyperion acquired UpStream in 2006 they acquired a product and support team that achieved unrivaled customer success and satisfaction. We have created a similar culture at OneStream Software and it starts with our ability to guarantee success to every customer and back that up each and every day.

About the Host, Greg Kihlström

Greg Kihlstrom is a best selling author, speaker, and entrepreneur and host of The Agile Brand podcast. He has worked with some of the world’s leading organizations on customer experience, employee experience, and digital transformation initiatives, both before and after selling his award-winning digital experience agency, Carousel30, in 2017.  Currently, he is Principal and Chief Strategist at GK5A. He has worked with some of the world’s top brands, including AOL, Choice Hotels, Coca-Cola, Dell, FedEx, GEICO, Marriott, MTV, Starbucks, Toyota and VMware. He currently serves on the University of Richmond’s Customer Experience Advisory Board, was the founding Chair of the American Advertising Federation’s National Innovation Committee, and served on the Virginia Tech Pamplin College of Business Marketing Mentorship Advisory Board.  Greg is Lean Six Sigma Black Belt certified, and holds a certification in Business Agility from ICP-BAF. 

  

Read More The Agile Brand Blog – Greg Kihlström Customer Experience & Digital Transformation

The following was transcribed from a recent interview on The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström podcast. 

Listen to the Episode

Prefer to listen? Click play on the below to listen to the episode. 

Today we’re going to talk about Customer Experience measurement, and the value of utilizing both new and existing measurements to better understand your customers.

To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome Judy Bloch, Principal CX Advisor, Medallia.

[Greg Kihlstrom] Let’s start out by talking about digital experience programs and the value behind listening to what your customers say and do. There are many ways to track and measure customer experience, including survey-based tools such as Net Promoter Score, or NPS, as well as tools that measure CX metrics in real time. What are some of the benefits of a digital experience program that can take your CX listening beyond a survey-based approach and into things like real-time insights and data?

[Judy Bloch, Principal CX Advisor, Medallia] There’s so many different elements and dimensions to this. But you’re absolutely right. Digital experience management really needs to include both what your customers are saying and what your customers are doing. As we know, digital is the reality of how customers are doing business today, particularly in this post-COVID world. And customer loyalty has changed significantly. We’ve seen a lot of research telling us and indicating how customers are much more likely to switch brands, and how digital has really become just table stakes for any company. We also know the cost of poor digital experiences have never been higher. There’s some research that I’ve read that indicates, after just one poor experience, 60 percent of customers will delete the app and 88 percent will buy elsewhere. So those are some staggering facts, some staggering numbers that should catch the attention of all digital executives, I would imagine.

How can these methods work hand in hand with an existing CX measurement program effectively?

Combining what customers do with what customers say, like a traditional voice of customer program, can be really powerful. Let me give you an example. When I was at a financial services company that I was supporting, we were really pushing digital account opening during COVID, of course; branches were closed. The online journey technically worked, but the field name had a character limit. And if a customer had a longer legal name, this could cause a problem – not ever going to be a problem for me, Judy Bloch, right, with an eight-character name, but for somebody else that has a much longer name, or perhaps uses a hyphenated name, or their middle name as part of their legal name, you can see how this could become an issue. 

Well, there wasn’t a whole lot of complaints about this, or voice of customer feedback – very, very few comments, very few calls, not a whole lot of that traditional voice of customer feedback about this. People would simply abandon the digital journey and go along their merry way, maybe find another bank where they didn’t have this problem in opening the account online. Again, not an issue for most users, but using behavioral data, we could see that customers are struggling with this field, ultimately giving up and walking away. Of course the bank doesn’t want to lose the account, and there’s always the possibility that the customer doesn’t give the bank a second chance, right? They may not come into a branch. They may not call us to tell us about the problem with the website. 

There’s a real risk here to the business that no feedback is provided, and the brand simply loses the customer; they walk. So using digital experience data to get to know what customers are doing online really helps complement and supplement traditional voice-of-customer feedback; also helps eliminate that sample bias, to give us insights about the full population. That’s what I think is so powerful, pairing that with the feedback, where possible. You just have the ability to create some really emotional storytelling, connections about what your customer is going through to, you know, get those wins, ultimately, and win the hearts and minds of your executives, to drive change.

I think that’s a good way to tie some of that more real-time stuff, the legacy data, all of that stuff, together effectively. So, as platforms and methods are continually evolving, you know, some of the things that you just mentioned, banks evolving through the pandemic out of necessity and things like that, in addition to just technology changes, as well as customer preferences evolving, how does an organization begin to create a CX program that effectively manages change and continuously improves?

It’s a really big question, right? I’ll give two different perspectives on this. What to do? Perhaps if you’re brand new to digital experience and looking to grow your CX program into digital, and then if you’re a little more mature, some ideas on how you might evolve. So first of all, if you are new to managing a digital experience or perhaps you’ve historically ran primarily a voice of customer program and looking to expand to digital, the first thing I would do is think about what are those most important digital experiences or journeys to your business?

For the bank, we were just talking about account opening. Obviously that would be one for them. But thinking through that, understanding what’s your digital strategy; what’s the key metrics; is it driving sales? Is it to contain or prevent calls into your call center? Picking that specific element of the holistic digital journey really gives you something tangible to focus on, versus boiling the whole ocean. I think another really good place to start is with unsolicited feedback, thinking about app reviews, Google Places, Yelp, social, et cetera.

And then the third thing I would offer here, if you’re new to digital experience, is I’d always recommend meeting with your digital and technology teams directly. Now, perhaps this sounds obvious, but I think, if you start a conversation with them, sometimes they can be unlikely allies and partners with your CX team. And it might just turn out that they already have tools and technology in place to help monitor system performance from an IT perspective that can also be leveraged to help understand the customer experience as well, so really creating some synergy there.

What about for those organizations that are a little more mature?

So once you’re capturing some digital signals, you’re understanding what your customers are saying and doing, now comes the fun part. It’s time to take action and really start quantifying the impact and driving that change. Closed loop looks different in digital.You still have the same inner loop. You still have the same outer loop that we’re used to with traditional CX programs. But in the digital world, there tends to be less emphasis on the one-on-one customer follow-up. Not to say it’s impossible. Certainly some brands do it. But we tend to focus more on outer loop and continuous improvement. So it becomes about how quickly can you adjust and resolve that customer friction to prevent the next customer from having a similar problem. Partnership, again, with your agile development teams here, so critical to feed the backlog and get into that development process.

With both the examples, a common thread that I see in what you’re saying is definitely collaboration. There’s definitely data integration and things that need to be shared, but it’s also teams and people working together and really kind of understanding not only the need but the benefits. How have you seen that work well in organizations where they may even have a CX department, but, as we all know, CX takes a village, or it takes a whole company to, kind of, do. What do you see that works well there to get everybody on the same page?

Sure, and I think it’s such an important point here. Yes, your organizations have CX departments, but, as we all know, CX is both a little art and science, and a lot of influence, right? So how do we influence other parts of the organization to drive change, ultimately, to empathize with what the customer’s going through, to just want to take action, feel compelled to do so? So influencing right is a key element of what we need to do as CX practitioners. And I think you see this every day across brands, as they make those little wins, right, is you can influence the training department to become a little more customer-centric, as we can work with our call center agents on their scripting and the messaging, and even the KPIs that we use to measure and monitor the teams. At the end of the day, you know, influence is one of those almost core CX practitioner skills that I think is vital to what we do.

Let’s talk specifically about customer experience for B2B companies. What makes customer experience, strategies and approaches different for B2B focused companies?

Simply put, what makes B2B focused companies different, when you’re running a CX organization and a B2B company, is just there’s more complexity, everything from questions around who owns the customer to different types of end users. So, for example, is this feedback from a decision-maker or a day-to-day user? There’s just more complexity to work through, right, how work gets done. And then, if you consider a B2B2C environment, I mean, it even continues to amplify. I think one of the great examples, or one of the best examples of this in play is if you think about, again, survey responses. It’s entirely possible for the feedback from the day-to-day working team to be overwhelmingly positive. But your decision-maker is unengaged or uninformed, and therefore you might have a risk that the customer might churn, despite receiving overwhelmingly positive feedback on a day-to-day basis.

What can B2B companies do in order to improve their CX?

I think the number one thing here I would say is know your customer. And certainly this applies to all CX teams but particularly in the B2B world. Know your customer, who is on each account and the role they play. Ensure your CRM systems or other data sources are accurate so that, when you get that feedback, or behavioral data, as the case may be, it can be sliced and diced through those various lenses. Connecting back to our previous conversation about digital, this means being really thoughtful about the custom parameters or metadata that you collect and append to digital feedback or behavioral analytics, things like user ID, session ID, purchase amount, all different metadata, right, that can be appended, that can help you see and know your customer a little bit better.

So what do you think is the biggest opportunity for B2B and CX?

Yes, well, as you might guess, I’m gonna go with driving change here, right, at the biggest opportunity. Clearly, you hear that theme from me throughout this. I mean, ultimately I think that’s why we run CX programs, is to be our customers’ champion and to advocate on their behalf, to create seamless, effortless experiences. So to me the biggest opportunity, regardless of if you’re talking about a B2C or B2B program, is driving change, and to continually improve. Specifically for B2B clients, for B2B customers, for B2B brands, your clients need to know that you hear them and that you’re actively working to make things better for them. 

I really love “You spoke; We listened” programs. I think they’re key here. I hear a lot of concerns from fellow B2B practitioners about low survey response rates. This tactic, with “You spoke; We listened” programs, can help here as well; and then, kind of, speaking of response rates, getting into that a little bit more. I think one of the biggest mistakes that B2B programs can make is to ignore non-respondents. We talked about the example earlier of different feedback from day-to-day users versus decision-makers. If your decision makers in particular are not responding, you can’t forget about them, right? Don’t ignore them. If you’re not 100 percent sure where they stand, then you need to reach out. So don’t forget about your non-responders. This is one of the biggest differences in B2B inner loop programs versus B2C.

About the Guest

Judy Bloch is Principal CX Advisor at Medallia.

From Judy:

I have a passion for customers and driving positive brand experiences across all channels & touchpoints. I also have a keen ability to see opportunity. Opportunity to design better processes & experiences, for customers and for employees. I see it everywhere – in my personal life from PTA meetings, to visiting friends in the hospital – and professionally from cross-channel servicing operations, to brand awareness & product value proposition. Opportunity to drive improved customer loyalty, lower costs, and deliver higher quality by cutting through the noise and creating a laser focus on the critical issues.

I am skilled at designing programs & structured problem solving frameworks to identify and solution challenging business opportunities with measurable results. Leveraging my 15+ years of business process improvement experience and leadership, I champion a culture of customer advocacy. I am knowledgeable on a variety of methodologies including Six Sigma/Root Cause Analysis, Customer Experience Management (CEM) and Journey Mapping/Management. I coach and mentor others to apply these rigorous methodologies and deliver results.

About the Host, Greg Kihlström

Greg Kihlstrom is a best selling author, speaker, and entrepreneur and host of The Agile Brand podcast. He has worked with some of the world’s leading organizations on customer experience, employee experience, and digital transformation initiatives, both before and after selling his award-winning digital experience agency, Carousel30, in 2017.  Currently, he is Principal and Chief Strategist at GK5A. He has worked with some of the world’s top brands, including AOL, Choice Hotels, Coca-Cola, Dell, FedEx, GEICO, Marriott, MTV, Starbucks, Toyota and VMware. He currently serves on the University of Richmond’s Customer Experience Advisory Board, was the founding Chair of the American Advertising Federation’s National Innovation Committee, and served on the Virginia Tech Pamplin College of Business Marketing Mentorship Advisory Board.  Greg is Lean Six Sigma Black Belt certified, and holds a certification in Business Agility from ICP-BAF.

  

Read More The Agile Brand Blog – Greg Kihlström Customer Experience & Digital Transformation

This post was originally posted on Forbes Agency Council, and you can read the full article there.

I must confess that I write a lot: documents, articles and even books (I’m finishing up book number 10 as I write this article). While I’m thankful I’ve had a lot of readers over the years, I also know it’s hard to find time in the day to read long documents or other communications, particularly when days are spent in endless meetings—virtual or otherwise.

Yet, concepts and messages need to be communicated, and in order for projects and initiatives to proceed, there needs to be a good understanding of them. I would like to propose that you spend as much time drawing out your ideas in flow charts and other illustrations as you do describing them with prose and bullet points.

This post was originally posted on Forbes Agency Council, and you can read the full article there.

  

Read More The Agile Brand Blog – Greg Kihlström Customer Experience & Digital Transformation

The following was transcribed from a recent interview on The Agile Brand with Greg Kihlström podcast. 

Listen to the Episode

Prefer to listen? Click play below to listen to the episode. 

Today we’re going to talk about the importance of executive leadership in branding and marketing of successful companies. To help me discuss this topic, I’d like to welcome Bonnie Habyan, CMO at X-Caliber Capital, and author of The World According to Bess which was just released.

[Greg Kihlstrom] Why don’t we start by you giving a little background on yourself, as well as what you’re currently doing as CMO at X-Caliber Capital?

Sure, I’ve been in the communications marketing business for two decades now, a little bit more, started out as a reporter, love songs DJ, a corporate spokesperson, and then, over the years, was fortunate enough to get my MBA in banking and finance, which really opened up a whole new world, gave me a lot more opportunities. So I was able to start in a marketing role where I started with myself and one other and then built a team up to about 26 people for a publicly traded REIT, and then most recently I took on a new role as a CMO in a similar type of field, but it’s more in that kind of going from small to mid-level, which is where I really shine, where I really enjoy, taking a company from one level to the next. That’s where I’ve been corporately. But I am very proud that I have just added the title “author” after my name, because I just published my first book about a month ago. And that is a whole conversation in and of itself, but very proud about that as well.

Nice, I’ll have to have you back on the show to talk about the process of writing! So today we’re going to talk a bit about the power of executive leadership branding. And so, first, to start, can you define what it means to you?

Yeah, for me, I think the thing that I’m seeing is that people always, kind of, associate brand with a company. And that’s not so much anymore. I think a brand can be anybody’s brand. And to me it’s the way a product, a company, or even an individual is perceived by those who experience it. So it crosses all the lines, in 2022, especially after the pandemic.

Why is it so important that executives pay attention to their branding? 

If you look 20, 30 years back, the only channels we really had to speak to our customers or our clients were maybe through direct mail and television. That has changed. Think about all the channels that are out there today, some of them more appropriate than others from a business perspective. But the influx of social media and, I would say as well, post-pandemic, how things have become heightened with respect to communicating via social media, audio, wearables, things of that sort, that you almost are not taking advantage of being able to help support your business if you’re not out there personally showcasing your brand. People trust you; they trust your brand, and I think we have so many leaders nationally and internationally who have taken advantage of that and now their brand is the company. And I think you’re going to see more of that.

I think there’s definitely a few out there who have really taken that sometimes maybe even too far, but they’ve definitely taken that and run with it. And I think we’re also seeing trends like CMOs being promoted to CEO. That’s happening a lot more than it used to, right?

I know. I find that really interesting. I would say that, you know, in the last five, ten years, you don’t see CMO tenures lasting that long because I think everything has changed so quickly and people want that quick something. And if you’re not producing it, you could sometimes be, I would say, you know, the person that maybe is right in the line of fire because things aren’t being produced quickly enough, or times are changing and you’re not beating the competition, but there’s so much involved, I think, in the elements of trying to stay competitive. And there’s just so much you could dive into to say, what is that all about? 

But, yeah, I think you’re seeing a lot of that change in the industry. And it’s funny, when you talk about those leaders who have done it really, really well, I think all of us can think of five or six at the top of our head who have really gone out and personally used their brand to help their company. And I think those people are, kind of, tied to that brand so much now that that’s a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing, I imagine, if things don’t go great. But to me, there’s definitely more benefits of building a brand than not.

In a sense, it’s job security and even CEO tenure is not what it necessarily used to be, either, let alone CMO, I think, is shorter even, but, it’s a double-edged sword, right? It’s like, you get that charismatic leader that really takes the brand forward, but then, if a scandal befalls them, or whatever, it’s time for a quick pivot. So how about the leaders that, you know, it doesn’t take a CMO to be one of those charismatic CEOs. But what about the leaders for which none of this comes naturally, but they’re a solid leader and maybe they’re a little more of an operational or finance or legal or some other area that doesn’t necessarily lend itself to being a branding expert? How can a leader get more comfortable with this idea? And what are, maybe, some potential first steps for them?

That’s really challenging. And I’ve worked with a lot of CEOs during my career, and some are very open to it; some really want to be more of a defensive sort of role. And so you see different personalities. And as a CMO, sometimes I see attributes that I think could really, really work well, but if you’re not comfortable with it, you have to work around it. So I would say that, yeah, there are definitely CEOs out there that may want to just be a little bit quieter and aren’t comfortable, because it’s hard going out on a channel of thousands of people and feeling authentic. You have to feel comfortable with what you’re saying, what you’re doing. And so I get that. 

I think there are some small steps you can take. I think you can certainly make sure that any of your business assets, whether it’s LinkedIn, whether it’s some thought leadership, always positions you in the best light, that it is content and topics that you’re comfortable with, because that will definitely resonate more; if you feel comfortable, you’ll feel more comfortable sharing it, speaking about it. But I also think, you know, when you talk about personal brand, you can do things that may not be forward-looking to the media and to industry organizations, but you can do it for your employees. So if you are out there perhaps commenting socially or commenting about things that your company did, that is a way that you can really communicate with your employees and get tremendous brand worth from that. It can be natural. It can be motivating. Because CEOs these days just don’t have a ton of time. But if they’re able to go out there and express a little of the strategy, express how proud they are of their employees, express the appreciation, it just has a huge ripple effect. So in turn it will absolutely support business revenue because you’re going to have great employees who are happy and who stay. But it’s a step forward and it’s a baby step.

I think that may feel natural to someone who at least is a good leader. I mean, we could call that internal branding or internal communications, almost, of, yeah, if they’re not quite ready to be out there as a public figure, or don’t want to be a public figure, I think they do have to have some kind of brand, even if it is mainly with their internal teams, right?

I agree. I agree. And I think, you know, in that situation, and I’ve been in many situations where you may want to put a product out there with a product head or a product leader, but if that’s not possible, you work around it. Maybe you can use the company and all of the great achievements to help brand that under the leadership. Maybe it’s a once-a-year letter. Maybe it is a once-a-year thought leadership piece. You know, taking those little baby steps and trying to figure out ways and understanding what is comfortable for a business leader is very important. But I do think it’s a nice tool to have in the toolbox of being able to speak on behalf of the brand, a little bit, to help it grow. But I do also know that things have accelerated in the last couple of years. Maybe three or four years ago we weren’t having this conversation as much. But post-pandemic, you’ve seen the winners and the losers in this situation of being able to leverage social media and the press and things of that sort to help heighten the brand, or those that may have lost a little competitive edge because they were not as tech-savvy or not as focused on how to stay engaged with their clients.

So we’ve talked a bit about, let’s call it “What to do.” How about what to avoid? So, you know, even for those that consider themselves savvy or those that wouldn’t consider themselves savvy, what are some things that leaders should avoid when they’re thinking about their own branding?

I think the biggest thing is really try, where you can, to avoid unauthentic communication. You know, I think they need to avoid thinking that their brand doesn’t matter and that their branding doesn’t matter. It does. And they need to be deliberate about building it. But I think you need to really try and work within the parameters of authenticity, where it is a personal brand. And if it’s someone like a CEO, if they’re not comfortable – I personally, as a CMO, wouldn’t push it. I think you work around it, or you get them more comfortable with it. I know I’m one that will come in and be like, “Let’s do this! Let’s do that!” You know, I have a whole strategy and a plan. And more than once I’ve learned that maybe my speed or my thoughts aren’t aligned 100 percent with, you know, that of a personal feeling of someone that they’re comfortable-level with it. And I think you have to take all of those factors into consideration.

But to me the number one thing is to be authentic. So if, you know, you want to write a response and you, kind of, teeter on, “Well, is that professional enough,” I think you always go on the premise of you want to be professional, but you also want to be like you’re talking to someone in a room. You don’t necessarily resonate if it’s very, very rote, very, very robotic. And I struggle with that myself every day, making sure that you want to put things out there that are of value, but then you also have to put things out there that are a little bit salesy, and that’s a hard line, you know, to follow.

So as you’re thinking about the months ahead, or even just things that you’re seeing and hearing now, are there any trends or even platforms or methods or anything like that, that leaders should be paying attention to and at least get on their radar as they’re thinking about all this stuff?

I think there are a few things. I think approaching things, or marketing, or business, as an integrated strategy across all the various channels and access points that you have to your clients, is most important. It’s constantly changing. You need to be aware of where your folks are really hanging out, where your consumers, clients, businesses are getting their information. And you need to understand what their pain points are. If you can do those two things and move that along the way, you’ll always have a measure of success. 

For instance, one of the items that I see really just blowing up in a big way is audio. People are consuming audio so much more, for many, many reasons. And I think that has to be a part of your plan. You have to start going places where LinkedIn, Twitter, you know, Instagram, can’t get you. And audio does bridge that gap a bit. So I think you have to look at it holistically.

I wanted to talk with you a little bit about that in particular. I mean, we’re on a podcast right now, obviously, so I believe in the power of audio, and you obviously do, too, because you’re here talking with me. So, you know, what are you seeing in the space of audio marketing? And you just mentioned that it’s something to pay attention to. What are you seeing and how have you seen it be used successfully?

Well, I like to research a lot. I’m constantly looking at futuristic trends. And I had no idea that it’s gotten to the point of people, on the average, listen to some sort of audio for about an hour and a half a day. And that’s definitely increased over the last five, ten years. And it continues to go on an upward trajectory. That being said, audio presents a lot of things that other mediums don’t. Now, if we had this conversation five years ago, I would have said, “Yeah, right. I don’t see that. You know, that was radio; that’s here and gone.” It’s rejuvenating. And it’s rejuvenating for a lot of reasons. You have people that are very digitally savvy, who like to multitask. And you can do that with audio. So I know, if I have to watch something, a presentation online, at times it frustrates me because I have no problem listening to it. Because I can do ten other things at once, plus I find, when I’m receiving communication via audio, I retain it better, as opposed to sitting and reading. And I don’t know why that is; maybe it’s our sensory neurons; I don’t know, but for me, personally, and I see that a lot of other folks are, kind of, finding that as well. I mean, nearly 200 million Americans stream music, radio, news, podcasts.

And think about how that’s growing. It’s not only now on radio. You have wearables, your Apple watch, things of that sort that you can constantly use. So the resources and the channels continue to grow. So I think audio is definitely a segment that people have to look into and integrate. I’m even seeing it to the point of you may have an article sent out, and, you know, content is king, but a lot of these articles have text transcriptions now that go right to audio. And there are services out there that provide it, that are like computer-generated voices. So you don’t even need to have voiceovers anymore. So I just see that continuing, audiobooks, all of those mediums, because it’s so convenient and it is just on so many different channels and different applications.

I’ve been doing this show for – I’m in my fourth year, about to start the fifth, but I feel like I was a little late to the party, so to speak. But at the same time, I’m a big audiobook listener, and I do listen to some podcasts as well. But, you know, it took me a little while. So I would say I had a harder time retaining things audio versus reading it, or watching, things like that, but doing it a bit, over time, I retain a lot more, and it’s kind of changed the way I think about audio. But I go on other podcasts as a guest as well, and often it’s recorded on video, and so, you know, I’m looking at the host and we’re kind of keying off of each other with eye contact and stuff – and so we’re recording this right now; it’s audio only. I actually intentionally don’t do that, for the reason that, you know, the end audience listening, I don’t want us to have an advantage over them, like I want them to hear it how we’re communicating, and we’ve got to communicate through auditory signals. So I think it helps make a better audio experience for the end user. I have no scientific data to back that up whatsoever. Call it a hunch, but I feel like it does help.

Yeah, I think it’s exciting. And I agree with you. I was probably a little late to the podcast game, which, you know, I was one of the naysayers, not thinking that this would grow at the time, at the rate it has. I didn’t realize how many wannabe broadcasters would come out. And I think it’s pretty cool because one day I’d love to have my own podcast, you know, when you have the time. And I think the beauty of being able to have that as an option is amazing. It’s amazing. And there is just expertise out on every topic you can imagine, and you can consume it at your leisure. And that’s what I think is just the beauty of audio.

About the Guest

Bonnie Habyan is CMO at X-Caliber Capital, and author of The World According to Bess.

From Bonnie:

I am a proven, creative, and innovative Chief Marketing Officer who leverages an entrepreneurial, forward-thinking, digital, and traditional marketing acumen to support the strategic vision of a growing, progressive company. I strive to not only bring marketing expertise, but to serve as an internal and external ambassador of the corporate brand, reaching across departments and disciplines to add significant value and deliver results. I love what I do, and it shows.

About the Host, Greg Kihlström

Greg Kihlstrom is a best selling author, speaker, and entrepreneur and host of The Agile Brand podcast. He has worked with some of the world’s leading organizations on customer experience, employee experience, and digital transformation initiatives, both before and after selling his award-winning digital experience agency, Carousel30, in 2017.  Currently, he is Principal and Chief Strategist at GK5A. He has worked with some of the world’s top brands, including AOL, Choice Hotels, Coca-Cola, Dell, FedEx, GEICO, Marriott, MTV, Starbucks, Toyota and VMware. He currently serves on the University of Richmond’s Customer Experience Advisory Board, was the founding Chair of the American Advertising Federation’s National Innovation Committee, and served on the Virginia Tech Pamplin College of Business Marketing Mentorship Advisory Board.  Greg is Lean Six Sigma Black Belt certified, and holds a certification in Business Agility from ICP-BAF.